Ep #11 | To Hire or Not To Hire? When and How to Build a Team That Fuels Your Freedom

Welcome to Episode 11 of the Roadmap to Business Success series, and our second episode in Quadrant 3: Grow Smart | Scale with Ease.

Hiring is one of the scariest decisions a business owner can ever make. The compliance is complex, the stakes are high, and the fear of getting it wrong stops many people from doing it at all. But there's a compelling reason to build a team: the burnout rates of solopreneurs are significantly higher than business owners who build a team. In this episode, Kate and Sam get honest about both sides of the hiring equation, and give you a practical framework for doing it well.

"If you can't take four weeks off and leave your business running, you're a slave to your own business."

In this episode, you will learn:

• Should you even hire? Why the answer depends entirely on the type of business you're running, what you want from it, and whether you actually enjoy managing people, because if you don't, there are other options
• The maths of leverage: How hiring one person who takes 20 hours of work off your plate every week gives you 80 hours a month back, and why those hours should generate far more revenue than the salary you're paying
• Signs you're ready to hire: You're constantly turning away work, working unsustainable hours, tasks are falling through the cracks, or you're doing work someone else could do for less than your hourly rate
• Signs you're not ready: You don't have documented systems, you can't clearly articulate what the role involves, your revenue isn't consistent enough to support a salary, or you haven't identified what you're actually hiring for
• Hire for your weaknesses, not your familiarity: Why hiring a mini-me is one of the most common and costly hiring mistakes, and how personality profiling tools like B.A.N.K, Harrison Assessment and Myers Briggs help you identify who will actually complement your team
• Use AI in the hiring process: How Kate used Claude to analyse Harrison Assessment reports for multiple candidates simultaneously, and how it ranked them in order with reasons, picking up things that an hour of human analysis had missed
• Hire slow, fire fast: Why desperation hiring almost always goes wrong — and why the cost of keeping the wrong person is almost always higher than the cost of starting the search again
• The compliance minefield: Why navigating awards, Fair Work, workers' compensation and workplace health and safety is one of the biggest barriers to hiring in small business — and why even Fair Work won't tell you if you're interpreting an award correctly
• It's not just about the money: Why the research consistently shows that fulfilment, autonomy, flexibility and purpose drive performance far more than salary — and how to build those things into your hiring process and culture from day one
• The goal: A team that runs the ship when you're not there — so you can take a holiday, recharge, and come back better

Kate and Sam also share real stories from the trenches — including a workers' comp situation that left them frustrated by the system, the bookkeeping firm with eight remote women who've built an extraordinary culture over 15 years, and why Sam has started including collaborative goals and personal development pathways in every staff contract.

Coming Up Next: Episode 12 — how to deliver a remarkable client experience every time. Onboarding, communication, feedback loops, and turning clients into raving fans who refer others.

Save the Date — Grow Smart Workshop: Kate and Sam are hosting their third live workshop on Wednesday 25 June — bring your hiring, team building, capacity and business model questions and get coached live.

Details coming soon — keep an eye on thrivingbusinesspodcast.com/workshops

And save the date — Bali Business Retreat: 27 August – 1 September 2026. Secure your spot with a $200 deposit. Reach out directly to lock in your place.

Connect with Your Hosts:

Kate De Jong, PhD | Inspired Business 🌐 Website: https://katedejong.com/ 📱 Instagram: @katedejong.inspiredbusiness ✉️ Email: kate@katedejong.com

Sam Morris | The O8 🌐 Website: https://www.theo8.com/ 📱 Instagram: @the_o8crew ✉️ Email: sam@theo8.com

Thriving Business Podcast 🌐Website:   https://www.thrivingbusinesspodcast.com/ 

JOIN OUR WORKSHOPS

🌐 https://www.thrivingbusinesspodcast.com/workshops

COME ON THE 2026 BALI RETREAT

🌐 https://www.thrivingbusinesspodcast.com/baliretreat2026

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Thriving Business, the podcast for ambitious business owners who want systematic growth without the burnout. Hosted by Kate Deong and Sam Morris, these business powerhouses bring you proven frameworks and real strategies to help you build a business that actually thrives.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Welcome back to the Thriving Business Podcast, everybody. I'm here again with my co-host today, Sam Morris in Melbourne. Hi, Sam. Hello, Kate. Hello, and we are up to um episode 11 of the 18-episode series of the roadmap to business success. So if you've just jumped in, we have been working our way through in this season two of this podcast through the thro the Thriving Business Wheel, which has four quadrants, and we we put it together as a bit as a roadmap for new business owners or even established business owners that may not have worked through each of the different elements in this wheel because each one is important and they all, as we say, play together like uh one, all the different instruments in a in a in a symphony orchestra. They all have to work together for the the um the overall business to run smoothly. So the topic today is to hire or not to hire and how to build a strong team. So um yeah, quadrant one was all about revenue generation, quadrant two was all about profitability, and now we are into the capacity module, which is uh all about um we've covered off your business model, so how you can set up your business model to um to scale with ease, or how to just operate um to bring in more revenue with greater ease if scaling is not your intention. And today we we are going to be answering the question of when is the right time to hire, or should you even be hiring? So, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Yes. I think Kate that hiring is one of the scariest things that business owners do. There are so many different uh aspects to this challenge from the practical to the emotional. There are things that I don't think that business owners ever truly feel ready to hire. I my belief, and and we've pulled up some statistics and things both of us have, and the conclusion that I'm drawing from the statistics are that business owners, their fear of everything that could possibly go wrong in hiring someone stops them hiring. But the statistics also tell us that the depression rates and burnout rates of solopreneurs are much higher than business owners who start to bring on employees.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Interesting. Yeah, and one of the big questions is you know, when is if can you take four weeks' holiday from your business? If the answer is no, then that's a very stressful situation to to put yourself in continuously, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Yes. And and let's be real, people who have a job can go away for four weeks. Right. And not worry about anything. Yeah. Yeah. If you're the business owner and you can't step out, then you don't have a business, you have a job. Yeah. Yeah, but and not even a job. I mean, what's up, what's underneath the job? Because even as an employee who has a job, you've probably got more flexibility with your sick days and your holidays than you do as a business owner. Because a business owner's answering the phone at 11 o'clock and a business owner's doing admin on a Sunday afternoon. Like the parameters around which you work are are so stretched when you own the business compared to when you just turn up for the hours that you're paid to work.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Having said that, it is a choice to hire, isn't it? And um and you and I in our in our coaching roles operate independently without staff, and that's a conscious choice. That's how it is at the moment, anyway. And that things are actually shifting in the in favour of people like us with the um emergence of AI, because now it is almost like having a team of staff working for you when you've got AR systems in place. So um, yeah, I think for me, the exciting part about AI is the fact that is it is enabling people like you and I to run a business with a whole sort of team of support behind us. So there's that side too. And I guess the first question you know, we want to talk through is um is hiring the right decision for your business? And yeah, so we can talk through that and then when is the right time? Because we've I think both you and I have learned um through our own and also through clients' experiences that hiring too soon can be very costly, um, can and it can all go can go very wrong. And um yeah, we'll talk through the ways um that you can hire well and and what to look out for. So if we get started with the question, um when when you know, should you hire it or not, Sam? What do you reckon? What do you need to consider?

SPEAKER_01 5:31

That the answer to that question depends entirely on the business correct and and what the business owner wants out of the business. There are a lot of things to consider here, and I'm going to suggest that the first one you consider is how many hours are you working for the return that you're getting? Because we know we know from being solopreneurs that you it's really easy to burn out when you're doing everything yourself. What we also know is that while you are doing the admin and the bookkeeping and the marketing and all of those back-end things in your business, that is time that you are not spending generating revenue. Yes. And this is where I think there is a big gap in the thinking about hiring staff. Because the whole point of hiring people to take care of the back end of your business is so you are more available for revenue generating activity.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Correct, yeah. And it's that maths of leverage, isn't it? If you hire one person who takes 20 hours of work off your plate every week, that's 80 hours a month you can get back. So what could you do in terms of revenue generation with 80 extra hours a month? You know, like it's quite remarkable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yes. And and it is, I I think it is a matter of doing some math because, you know, if you do happen to free up 80 hours of your time a month, let's be realistic and say perhaps, you know, 40 of that might be spent, you know, genuinely delivering and and doing sales. You know, I always like to cut things in half. So if you are able to have an extra 40 hours a month where you're being paid for whatever it is that you do, yeah, that amount of money should be more than what you're paying the importance. Absolutely. Yes, yes, yeah. If you've got things set up properly, that's what's supposed to happen.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Correct. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you're right, it depends on um the business, the kind of business. So as you know, we've talked through, we did a whole episode on the five different types of small business. And you know, you've got, yeah, you've got the micro businesses, and then you've got the thought leaders, like you and I, the coaches, consultants, um, you know, to who tend to be solopreneurs with operating with virtual assistants. Then you've got the traditional brick and mortar businesses, you know, retail hospitality, trades, um, traditional service businesses, IT, accounting, bookkeeping, you know, that's another whole, you know, and and they do need to hire staff in order to actually operate. Um, and then you've got the entrepreneurial types. And eventually, if they um get a venture that breaks through and succeeds, they need to then build a team because the you know the demand increases and so on. So yeah, it really is a an you know, where are you in that scale of you know, that different the different types of business? And do you have the intention to hire staff? Because uh, I think we've talked about this previously, Sam. Like I've made a conscious decision not to employ people because I love leading people, but I don't like managing people. And there's a difference. There is a big difference, and I really, really don't like managing people. Like when I used to do that in my engineering days, it drained me. I really hated it. Like, and so part of the reason of branching out was I just want to be free to do my thing. And I love managing virtual assistants or working on teams where you're managing sort of a project scope and and you've got different people doing different parts of it, but actually employing people and having to go through that whole thing that so before we got on today, Sam, you were telling me some of the trials and tribulations going on in your PSN business, which is the business you run with your husband and some of the hiring um issues going on there, which is all people management, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 9:37

It is, it is, and I do think that you know there are there is a special type of person that lends itself really well to managing people. It's not, I think, you know, this is well known, and we've talked about this for years. Just because somebody gets promoted into a management position does not make them a good manager, and we've seen that time and time again. Anyone that's been in the corporate world has definitely seen that that competency in a particular job doesn't necessarily relate to being a really great manager.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah, that's right. And I think if you choose if you um go down the path of wanting to hire people, you do have to um firstly be aware of the game you're getting into, the whole people management game, and also you know, check in with yourself. Is that something you're going to enjoy doing? Because initially you will have to be the one managing the people. Down the track, you know, as the business grows, you can have someone who does the HR people stuff and you grow more into a strategic director role. But in the beginning, you are going to have to manage people. And is that something you're going to be good at or enjoy? Um, and yeah, if neither of those, if you're not going to enjoy it and you're not going to be good at it, um, you can upskill, absolutely, right? It's just being aware that there's a gap, that there's a there's a gap of people management skills there that you'll need to fill and just being aware of that. And some people embrace that. I've seen clients um really go all in with the people management, they go and you know, upskill and learn and become great people managers and really love it. Um, yeah, so it's definitely uh something you can learn, I guess. Yeah, is what kind of business um are you running? Where what's the vision for your business? Are you growing an enterprise that requires team and staff? So that would be the first and question. And then do you actually enjoy it and do you have the skills? And if not, are you happy and willing to develop the skills to manage people?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yes. And of course, Cave, I I think there's a flip side to that where if you're considering bringing someone on, recognize if you don't think you have those people management skills and hire somebody who does. So essentially the the roles can be somewhat reversed where you're bringing someone in who has that skills to help manage you. And I know that you know, business owners are like, I don't want to be told what to do, but it's not about that, but it it's about somebody who can initiate the communication that's needed and some of the things that people managers need to do. That employee may have those skills in which they can then you can give them the power to bring those skills in and use them on you.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Yeah.

unknown 12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

So we'll talk a bit more about that a bit further down the track about you know hiring the right team and not not hiring a mini-me because you actually need the diversity in someone to complement your weaknesses and so on. Yes. Yeah. So um, yeah, building a team isn't about just getting help in your business, it's it's about multiplying your time and impact through other people. Um, yeah, and and the lifestyle business trap, you know, some people think that staying solo gives them the freedom, but being the only person in your business often means you have the least freedom of anyone. So um I think I'm at the point now of really because I can't take four weeks off currently and and have the same revenue generation coming through. That I'm that I've been aware that that's a bottleneck for a long time. But even though I have you know a support team, um as as in um virtual assistants, I um the AI is where I'm really excited about potentially being able to still keep a presence and keep the money coming, you know, inquiries coming in while I'm away on holiday because all these systems are available to us now, the automations and so on.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yes. Yeah, yes, I think but yet that is true, Kate, but the automations need to be watched, the AI needs to be supervised. Yes, you can't let things run rampant in your business. We all know that as wonderful as technology is, you know, it can break. One update to a platform can break things that you've got set up. Uh, you know, one little letter that changes inside a code can totally jam up your whole business. Yeah. So so as great as it is, you do have to keep an eye on things.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Absolutely, yeah. And I can and and I I don't imagine there'll ever be a time where I'm taking four weeks off and not checking in at some point, you know. But yeah, but some of the you know funnels we set up are set and forget, aren't they? You set up, you have a great lead magnet, um, people download it, they sign up for your nurture sequence, that all goes out out automatically. I've had a couple of those funnels running for years and they just do their job in the background, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Do you ever look at those funnels, Kate, and update them?

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Do you look at their performance and analyze it and tweak things and not enough, but yes, that's yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

I do look at them on occasion and um and consider you know, whether you know, I should just put some money on ads and um to just give them a bit more exposure to because they trickle and quite um they trickle in, if you know what I mean. Whereas yeah, anyway, I guess that's all about being strategic about what you're trying to do, isn't it? And yeah, where back to the hiring people. So if if you're um at that point where um so here are some of the the things that signs that you might be ready to hire is that you're constantly turning away work, you're working unsustainable hours, um, tasks are falling through the cracks, or you're doing work that someone else could do for less than your hourly rate.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yeah. Um, signs that you're not ready, you don't have documented systems or processes, you can't clearly articulate what the role involves, your revenue isn't consistent enough to support a salary, or you haven't identified what you're actually hiring for.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

So I'm gonna play devil's advocate here because I actually think there are circumstances in which those things should be the reason that you hire because you hire someone in to help you get all of that set up. Like that's that's part of their role. Help me make this business employee ready.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah, that's that's asking quite a lot of someone, though, isn't it? Like just thinking, if I'm thinking of my um, and I might it might not be, I'd like to be challenged on this, but I'm thinking of a client who I've been working with in the last year, and um, he's a a draftsman, so residential, you know, home extensions and so on, doing all the things in business, chain to his desk, trying to, you know, deliver the work, do all the council approvals, and and basically was burning out. And then we just originally just started with okay. His his question when he came to me was, where's all my money going? I'm making all this money, where is it going? So we worked through the Profit First methodology, and he's going on his first holiday to Italy in a few weeks. Yeah, but he was saying his first goal in working with me was to hire someone, and I just said to him, You can't bring someone into this chaos, you know. So he didn't have any documented processes or procedures, no um no expectations, no role definition. And and he didn't even know what he was doing. I first had to get him to do a time map of okay, what are you actually spending your time on during the week and what are the tasks that you could delegate? So just no oversight of anything. And so I encouraged him not to hire yet until um we've got those things in place and we're working through that, getting ready. But interesting to your point, can you bring someone in to help develop the processes that are required?

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Yes, I I I I think there are circumstances in which, and again, everything that we're saying, like it has to be measured with suitability to the individual business. But in my mind, I'm thinking about you know, that this exact type of business owner who is overwhelmed with all the work. And then if you tell them no, don't hire you need to get all of this done first, that overwhelm has now doubled because they you straight away you just added a whole the perception, I should say the perception is you've added a whole heap more tasks onto their plate. The reality is that creating processes and systems doesn't have to be a whole separate thing because you should be doing that as you go.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

That's right, and screen recording and and uh so we've just started the process of capturing what he is doing in real time and using AI to help develop up procedures. So he's not doubling his work but um capturing his work more. But I know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Um Yeah, I know I just worry for the business owner that thinks oh my god, that's more gotta do when I don't have time and I'm already too busy. Don't give me more work to do.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Well, the interestingly enough, the first thing which which was the Prophet First, gave him enormous freedom. Yes. Because, and and that's what you always say, Sam, like the Prophet First gives you um control. For the first time, you feel like you're in control and it gives you that freedom. And he said that after we implemented that, he could actually sleep at night. So for him, it was just feeling out of control and with everything. And I think getting that handle on the finances and seeing that he's actually making really good money just wasn't allocating it in the right way and and you know, um drawing from it strategically. So, and that didn't take a lot of effort to implement. Like it was basically setting up those different bank accounts right, and then um I said to him, every time you get paid, just split it across those different accounts, and fairly quickly that gave him um you know that control and freedom over his finances, which gave him the mental space to then you know start focusing on the SOPs, the standard operating procedures and things like that. And now I think because he's got that goal in mind of hiring something, he's kind of motivated to make sure he does that step well.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

So yeah, I guess it's uh um I can see what you're saying. My only fear around bringing someone on was that can you find a draftsman that has that ability? Like actually, he needs someone to do the technical grunt work, you know. Like, I guess it's so hard to find good people in the market at the moment. What are the chances of finding a draftsman that can actually help you develop procedures? And I'm sure there they're out there, and maybe that's just about getting clear on what you're hiring for.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yes, yes, I do agree with that. You need to be very clear about the outcome that you want from hiring somebody. Yeah. Is it to increase the workload capacity? Is it to do decrease your work hours? You know, what what are you trying to achieve with this employee?

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Correct, yeah. Yeah, because um when the golden rule is um when I, you know, asked AR to help me, what are some you know, rules and guidelines we can give people? Says the golden rule is map out your business goals for the next 12 to 18 months first, then hire specifically for the skills you need to achieve them, not for the tasks that are piling up on your desk today.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yes. And I think this is a real mind shift for people around the whole hiring question, because I think they're they're starting with an incorrect premise. Like you said, they're thinking about all of the work they're not getting done, all of the things that you know that social media and all of Guru say we should be doing that we're not, that makes us feel like we're failing. Yes, absolutely. The ultimate way to hire is to start with what is the outcome? Yeah. What what's the goal here from having this extra person sitting on another desk next to me?

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Yeah, and then making sure that the the um the job ad that you put out or job description is very clearly defining those expectations because there might be draftees that love the challenge of doing the business side of things.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yes. And if you if you think about personality testing case, you you know that scenario would lend itself very uh very well to somebody, for example, who's a blueprint, a blueprint draftsman who loves all of that structure and systems and everything because they would be sitting in a space of well, if you don't have them, we're gonna get them.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yes, that's right. That's how I thrive. Yeah, and for those that aren't aware of the system Sam's talking about is the bank code we've which we've gone through and we will be going through again when in the leadership system. Yes, yeah. But it's um yeah, it's four different colour-coded personality types. Um, and we've all got all four, but it's it's it's the um composition of those four and the the preferences that you have. So blueprints, as Sam was just talking about, very important to have processes, procedures, stability, predictability. And clearly the draftsman that I've been working with is not blueprint because other otherwise he wouldn't have ended up in this spaghetti, you know. That and so for him to hire a blueprint person would be a really smart move.

unknown 23:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Yeah, um, I think it is that intentionality behind everything, isn't it? Hire for your weaknesses, you know, who can you bring in that's going to support you in developing the things you're not good at?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

So yes, and it and it isn't about you know putting in your job ad, are you a blueprint? But once you understand the different personality types, and this is, you know, this is where we're leveraging AI, right? Once you understand the personality type you need and and match it with the skill set you're looking for, that's when you're going to use particular language in your job ad that will naturally attract that type of person.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah. So imagine in this case, you could put out a job ad saying this is a young, growing, fast growing residential drafting business. We are looking for people who would love the challenge of help helping with our who's, you know, a good drafts person but loves the challenge of building internal systems and processes, right? And it's getting very clear up front, this is the kind of person we're looking for. So if if that yeah, so that would filter out a lot of people because a lot of draftees would not be interested in that at all, right? They just want to do the technical drawings and and um they don't want to be concerned with building internal systems, but the right type of person would be really excited by that idea of being exactly, yes. Yeah. Yes, interesting. So it does come back to again. I think this is the most common mistake I see in probably you too, Sam, that people do just get overwhelmed, busy, and think, I need to hire, and then put a job out, and then end up in this cycle of churn and burn because they're hiring the wrong people, the expectations aren't clear, they're not set up to succeed, and then it's just a a treadmill that you can't get off.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yes, yes. Um the next thing that I I do want to point out is that if you're considering hiring at any point, and and maybe you're sitting there right now thinking, oh, I'm a long way off needing to hire anybody. I think another huge mistake we all make is hiring too late. Hiring when we are already, as you said, already desperate and overwhelmed, and then we make bad hiring choices. I think I already mentioned this in another episode about the Gary V quote where you know, where I've heard him say on repeat that you hire slow and fire fast. Yes. When you are desperate and overwhelmed and need someone now, that is not conducive to slow hiring.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

It's a conducive to slow firing, it's a fast firing, but just not as but that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Like you you're so desperate, and and this is the other side of the coin. You hire somebody, and I've seen this many times before as well, where employers don't fire people because they don't want to go through that process all over again of having to hire. But the reality is that it takes a few goes to get to the right person in in most cases. Yeah, it's just it's a it is a little bit of a numbers game because each time you hire someone and you hire wrong, you learn what you did wrong, and then you bring that to the next hiring process, and it and you do refine it for your business, but you do have to go through the pain of figuring all that out.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Yes, yeah. Yeah, and it's probably a good point to bring in the personality profiling tools that are available to help, you know, it really is getting clear on firstly what with your own self-awareness, what are my strengths and my natural um things I'm I'm good at and and naturally do with ease, and what are the areas I struggle in? And yeah, hire being intentional about hiring for those uh for someone who has the skills that feel your weaknesses. Um yeah, I've um you know helped a few companies um hire through personality profiling. The bank code's a really lovely, easy one to do because it's just four different coloured cards, and you can sit there in conversation when if you're having an interview and just say, you know, how would you how would you order these cards in terms of your preferences and um yeah, getting people to have a think about you know the kind of person they are and the kind of roles they thrive in. And then I've also helped um people recruit using the Harrison assessment tool, and that's a lot of that's a much deeper dive and a much more complex personality profiling system, but it can give you some, and and basically um they get the candidates once they've selected the final three to five, they'll get them to do that test before any interviews take place. And um yeah, it can be very revealing what comes out, some of the behavioural patterns or the the blind spots, but but very importantly the strengths. And so having being armed with that information before you go into interviews is is really really helpful. Um, because you can ask specific questions around those strengths or around the blind spots and really get a handle on will this person fit well in my team, or you know, so they can be very helpful, those tools. Myers Briggs is another one that's that's helpful. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

I think that uh personality testing should be used a lot more in the process. Yeah. You know, maybe I should start maybe we should start a movement, Kate, where it's actually uh your personality testing results should be a part of your resume because make it so much easier to filter out people.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because the bank coding system has an AI extension on LinkedIn and you can actually read someone's bank code from the language they use on their website and on their LinkedIn profile. So, and and actually nowadays with um AI, you can do all of that. Um, like if they give you their CV and a cover letter, you can get AI to um assess what kind of personality they think this person is, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Hey, why haven't I been doing I use AI so much? That is that another way. I hadn't even thought of the of doing it that way.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Yeah. And yeah, my colleague and I, um James Bryden, he's the one that trained me in the Harrison assessment. He is a um, we do um emotional intelligence consulting together. And one day, like normally Harrison generates these huge 20-page reports, you know, and you it used to take quite a lot of time to go through them and understand them well. And uh and so recently, yeah, probably a year ago, we had a situation where I was helping a client recruit, and she was looking at all these different candidates, and we did their Harrison assessment reports. And I was having a session with James just to go through them and see, you know, this is the job description. Which one of these people do you think is the best suited based on that? We were talking it through. And I said to him, Oh, I might ask Claude if it could analyse these for me. Yes. We were just blown away, like now it's just standard practice, isn't it? But it basically summarized these 20th pages and ranked them in the order with all the reasons why um candidate A was better than candidate C, you know, and and yeah, it was just the most stunning um revelation to us. And all of a sudden, and it picked up things that we hadn't picked up. So we'd spent an hour analysing these reports. We came to the same conclusion as Claude, but um but it picked up things that we hadn't picked up. So yeah, it's quite stunning what you can do nowadays um on that front. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I am sitting here wondering if people use AI to create their resume and cover letter. I'm wondering about how much we will be able to extract a person's personality from AI generation. Yeah. We're gonna have to fall back on the testing, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Yeah, I think in in cases where you've actually got them to do a proper psychometric profiling, then AI is really helpful because it's got data to work with. But what you're saying is if you're just assessing it on someone's cover letter that they've sent, which could have been written by AI AI, how much of that is authentic or real, you know, or actually specific enough to Yeah, a reflecting of the type of reflection of the type of person that they are. Yeah. Yeah, but it's interesting because it used to be that you had to be certified in different psychometric profiling techniques to be able to use them. But now AI can help you with human design, it can help you with bank code, it can help you with Myers Briggs. Yes, the world is suddenly open. So there's no sort of really any excuse in recruitment nowadays to not really analyze candidates for their personality profiles and how they would best, you know, then assess which one is going to be the right fit for the team you're trying to recruit for. So yes, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Yeah, yes, and I think that you know, people present, you know, if you get to the point where you're interviewing people, there is a persona that people will put on for the interview. And and I know I've certainly been through this where the person that I interviewed three days into the job, the the true person starts coming out. Yes. Like, what happened to the other person, you know? Be because the persona and the energy all changes, and yeah. You can sort of you can mitigate that if you're doing some of this work and and leveraging some of these tools on the back end before you hire. Absolutely. It can eliminate a lot of the stress around choosing the wrong person.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

It's still not going to make it a perfect process, but it is going to make it uh, you know, increase your chances of success.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the um Harrison assessment can give you some really um quite deep information into someone's you know psychology and the way they operate. And and it's true when I um when this client I'm thinking of interviewed this one girl who was a candidate, um she in you know um presented so well in her interview, and and yeah, my client wanted to hire her, but it was like, yeah, but there are quite a few red flags there, you know. So that um she decided to trial them for a few months. And um the good thing was the red flags didn't become immediately um visible, um, but she was able to have a conversation with this with this trial person and say, look, this is what's come up, you know, in your profiling um as growth growth areas for you. And thankfully the girl was uh self-aware enough to say, yes, that's true. I do have those patterns under stress and I can show those behaviors, um, which is amazing because that person can then, with the support of the employer, grow and be given tasks to really develop in those areas as opposed to if they get defensive and shut down and say, Oh, you know, how dare you challenge me or you know, tell me what my weak spots are, then that then if they do get defensive like that, then that's a sign that it's probably not going to work out long term. But um, but yeah, it did allow her to have a conversation around this is what's come up. Um I really want to work with you to really develop those, you know, weaknesses into you know, how do we find ways to develop them for you? So that yeah, it can be a really powerful tool to in recruitment.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

I I love that the person wasn't discarded because of the red flags. I love that I love that they did that they were seen as an opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Yeah, and that is thanks to this client's mindset. She's very much opportunity-oriented or growth-oriented, and I think also, Sam, as you've experienced, it's so hard to find good people. And you're never going to get the perfect fit, right? There's always going to be something that's just, you know, um not quite perfect or ideal. And so it's just about managing those parts of someone's personality or skill set and helping them rather than coming up, you know, at them and saying, Oh, I've you know, I've looked at your profile and you you have these weaknesses. She didn't approach it like that at all. It was like, you've got amazing strengths in these areas, and that's the golden rule, isn't it? For developing someone is start with what they're good at and validate all their strengths, and then say, I have noticed though that these are the areas that we can work on together to help you, you know, really develop into being a strong team member. And so that framing makes it a really positive approach rather than we've discovered that you have these weaknesses, you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah. And I think too, you've got to look at the overall scheme of things and and the equal equilibrium of, you know, whether it's just you or whether you have a couple of people working for you. If you're looking at employing somebody who has the same red flags as you do, that's probably not going to end well. No, that's not. No matter how amazing their skills are, this is where you have to hire complimentary people. Yes. And not hire just the same as you.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Which is uncomfortable because we want to hire someone the same because it feels familiar and it feels good, but it's not going to end well. You're right.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

No, no. So um there's another area of hiring that I think is definitely worth discussing, and that is navigating regulation and awards and fair work and all of those rules in which we have to play this game in the way that we treat people, in the way that we pay people, in the way that we are responsible for people. But it is getting more and more complex and more and more regulated every year. Every year. This is another barrier to pe to small businesses in particular hiring staff. Because you know, the the first mountain is the hiring process, but the second one is making sure that you are compliant with everything so you don't get started off to jail or sued, or you know, so that you don't hurt people. Yeah. It can be hard, you know, awards alone, interpreting awards alone is a minefield in which it is very, very easy to make mistakes. Yeah. And I know from my own experience when I have rung fair work to ask specific questions about how I'm interpreting an award, they won't tell you.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Why? You have to go and pay a lawyer. Right. Yeah, or an employee or a um HR consultancy, right? Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

So even fair work won't back you up and tell you you are interpreting this correctly or incorrectly, which I've found to be extremely hard to swallow.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Yeah, given that they set the standards and regulations, but won't I guess they're not allowed to take on an advisory role. It's like banks, isn't it? We are not allowed to give you financial advice or um, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

No, no, but when you just get a basic question and you're being deferred to a lawyer, and it's like, really? Yeah. And there are there are things that are very commonly misinterpreted by employers that could easily be resolved if only they would simplify the way these awards are set up. So, you know, yeah. I just I feel bad for anyone, you know. As soon as you start employing people, you have to pay work cover. Yeah. That means, you know, like you you're on the radar for work cover, and it is wonderful to have that protection for employees. But I I'll I'll tell you a story of uh of an experience that we had with work cover. Okay. And that was, you know, we had a staff member who hurt themselves and they went to get medical attention, which absolutely they should. And and I don't have any problem with that. What I what I found really hard to deal with was the way in which things were handled from the doctor's office onwards. There was no consultation with us as business owners with regard to can this employee take on any other duties? Can they be at work? Like that none of that happened. It was decided outside of our business that this person was going to go on work cover. Right. And at the time this was happening on my television screen were many, many ads about how they were encouraging people who were injured to get back into the workplace and do light duties and you know, and to encourage them to get back to work. And I thought, how interesting that this is what they're promoting on the outside, but their system doesn't allow for it. Because at no point were we asked, yeah, can he can this person come in and do anything? Can we get them back to work on a part-time basis?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Alongside that, it's a huge financial burden on the business, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Because yeah, you know it's not cheap. Work cover is not cheap at all.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Yeah. And yeah, the fact that they're not asking the question, okay, they've they've hurt their elbow. Is there something they can do? You know, they could work from home, like you say, and and still feel purposeful and because I don't think it's good for your mental health either to be suddenly out of work and sitting at home all the time until you recover. You know, that's not that's not ideal either. But yeah, that's interesting that there was no consultation with the business owner.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

No, no, there wasn't. And and it this is where you start to see this widening gap of resentment between regulation and business owners. Yeah. Because it can feel very, very restrictive. And you know, in that instance when you know it was evident what the person was capable of, absolutely not capable of doing the job that they usually do, but could certainly have been employed to do alternative work. To to feel like we're they're being paid to sit at home when they could be doing something was immensely frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Absolutely. Especially because you're the one paying the salary and there's not been any questioning or con or discussion.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Yeah, and because you know, like you've got to pay the the first two weeks salary and you've got to pay up to an X amount of medical bills before work cover payments kick in. Right. Yeah. And and yeah, it's not that I resent people being looked after, but it's just another way in which the government make it difficult.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Because you're shelling out for the first two weeks, you're shelling out the salary for that person, which means you you know, in a lot of instances, like you can't afford to then hire someone to do the work that they were doing. So straight away you're sort of in a little bit of a hole. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

So I think, you know, that that side of things, you know, interpreting awards so that you don't get sued and and making sure that work cover, you know, and em employers are responsible for the mental health of their staff. I think that in small business, that's an incredible burden. Yeah. Yeah. It it it's it can be really frightening to think, you know, you're putting on somebody new, and if they haven't done personality testing and if you don't haven't required medical, you know, like a medical review and all that sort of stuff, you may have people coming in that, you know, may have challenges already that you don't know about. And they can have that potential to then become your responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Yeah, and there's so many stories you hear, aren't there, of people of you know, employees um going on workers' comp and uh and yeah, and if from um mental health, you know, um pauses and so on. And it is a real I mean, speaking to a lot of business owners, it there is a lot of resentment out there, isn't there, about how hard it is becoming to employ people and the the compliance you have to wade through. And and there's no responsibility on the employees themselves. It's a bit like the rental situation, isn't it, where the landlords have no rights anymore, or the all the power sits with the the tenants in, you know, it's as it's kind of a similar, would you say, in uh employees versus employers, the employee virtually has no responsibility. It's the employer that has the bur carries the burden, as you say, and is responsible for covering anything that the employee thinks is required of them. So that to be honest, that is one of the big things that deters me from employing people, is just that whole minefield. And I know a lot of HR consultancies around town, just small agile firms, that that's what they do all day, every day is helping small businesses navigate this world of compliance and work cover, you know, workers' comp and and firing fairly and um you know, unman micro, what do you call it, performance management, all that stuff. Like it's a it's a big, big responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Yes, yes. I Kate, I was looking at um, you know, as a responsible employer, and we have some, you know, quite dangerous equipment that the staff interact with, and you know, we have heavy vehicles out on the road. And so it's becoming more and more industry standard now for drug and alcohol testing. Yeah, but so I was working on our own policy for drug and h drug and alcohol testing, and I I was just I was blown away with the fact that any policy we introduce has to be in consultation with the staff. And you know, and and there was a it was very specific around how you were allowed to test people, and you know, it you have to list suspicion if you're targeting one person, you have to have really solid uh grounding on why you're testing just one person as opposed to random testing. But then not only that, it was the flip side of if the person returns a positive result, there's no dismissal. It was providing support with alcohol drug or alcohol counseling and you know, like not not directly, but saying go, you know, go get counseling, go get help doing all of these things. They're they've got a certain period where they're they're paid and then they're on unpaid leave. You're not allowed to get rid of their job, they're allowed to get better and then come back. Wow. It it was just and again, it's not about it's it's not about sort of trying to disadvantage people, but at the same time, this is putting a massive disadvantage to the business.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Because, you know, number one, the person's going to get help, which they absolutely should, but that means then you've got to get somebody in their place, and then that person who's in their place, you're gonna train and and everything, and then when the other person comes back, that person has to go and I sort of yeah, but also you know, forcing someone to go or you know, or strongly recommending they go and get therapy or detox or whatever, they have to be ready for that. I mean, the majority it's an addiction and or you know, or you know, a social crutch or something, and they're not ever ready, going to be ready. So that's that's a very tough cycle to get into because it it it is.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

And you know, uh it it again, it's just another thing that makes you hesitate when it comes to hiring people. And I I was listening to oh, you know, I was doom scrolling the other day, and I was listening to one of the politicians talking about the unemployment rate and how the government and the ABS, the parameters around which they assess the unemployment rate in this country is faulty because there are certain uh groups that they exclude from that percentage. And so the reported unemployment rate is actually much higher. And I think they said the minimum standard to consider someone employed was they only had to work one hour per week and they weren't included in that unemployment percentage. So I hear that, and it gives me some kind of sense of faith that you know maybe the pool of potential employees is bigger than what what I thought. Yeah. But then I I just sit there and I think, well is there really that many people who are keen to work? I'd like to hear a percentage from the government about the people that are genuinely wanting to work. Because I think that's a really different number.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Absolutely. Yeah. And a very different pool of people to draw from. Yes. Yeah.

unknown 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

And because another important point is it's not necessarily these days about the resume or the past jobs, or it it's it's more about the attitude, it's all about the attitude they bring, the willingness to work, the willingness to learn new skills, the willingness to learn to be agile and adapt. And, you know, that is worth so much more to an employer than someone who has the perfect skill set, you know, because they could have the skip perfect skill set, but be lazy or have a bad attitude and and create a toxic workplace, you know. So it's all about how do you find those people that are willing to work, willing to learn, willing to grow, willing to um help you grow the business. And it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack, probably, but it can be.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

It can be. We don't want to scare people off from hiring, though.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

No, no, we don't. We've been very quite negative. No, I mean, um, yeah, looking around the small businesses, I see um it is, you know, hiring is an ongoing challenge and focus, but I see a lot of businesses with a really lovely core stable team, you know. And um, I'm thinking about, you know, my partner's IT business with um really group of 10 staff that are just really gel and they've got a great culture and they work together and love it. And and then it's a really clear every time he needs to hire a fresh, it's a really clear job description because everyone knows where they've got to fit in the team, what the culture, it's very clear what the culture is. Same with this bookkeeping firm I'm thinking of. It's an all-female team. She's got um eight girls and they all work remotely, but they're in a virtual office all day together on on Oh, that's nice, yeah. And and they meet um twice a month in person. But for them, culture is really important as well because they're working together constantly and um and but she's managed over a period of 15 years to cultivate this core team of girls that work really, really well together. And occasionally she'll get a you know, someone that comes in and rocks the boat and she'll have to manage them out. Um, but yeah, it's I I think my point is, yeah, with all this doom and gloom we're talking about, if that's the goal to build, you know, a team of yeah, a team of staff to support you in your business, it is completely possible. And I think what we would say as our recommendations in wrapping up, Sam, it's that quote that you mentioned: hire slow, fire fast.

SPEAKER_03 53:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

And that hiring slow is all about being really strategic, not just hiring because you're busy and overwhelmed, but yeah, what we talked about in the first half is really being strategic about that. And then yeah, making sure those job ads or the recruitment process is really clear and targeted to a specific skill set and attitude that you want, and be it's all about the expectations you set, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 53:34

And yes, I think another thing that I think I I've I've seen reported quite a bit is the the shift away from you know the thinking that people are only in it for the money. And I know that that can feel like the the wrong thing to be talking about given what's going on at the moment with the cost of living and everything, because money is very important to people.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

Yeah, but it isn't everything that drives uh employees, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Exactly. To to drive performance and bring the best out of people, there needs to be something else apart from money because you know, if they're a high performer, they can get the money elsewhere. Yeah. So it it's about giving staff purpose, about collaborative goals for what they want to achieve and how that fits into the business and what the business wants them to achieve. Yeah. And also, you know, and then that to me the money should be, you know, that the the sprinkles on top of the icing on top of the and working out at these achievements. This is this is what happens to your salary, and this is what happens to your role, and and things like that, rather than just saying, you know, I I pay you enough to do what you do.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Yeah, and um for these days it is about um fulfillment in your role, isn't it? For most people, and myself included, I'd much rather a lower salary than uh but have autonomy over how I get my KPIs done. You know, if I know that my role requires me to do XYZ, I want the freedom to be able to achieve achieve XYZ in in a way that suits my family, my you know, my schedule. Like I might be up late, you know, do an all night, but I'll still get them done. You know, do you know what I mean? It's like the freedom to to so it's that outcome-focused um perform performance management as opposed to you must sit in the office from eight to five and you know these tasks off the list.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

And if you don't take them all off the list, then you failed.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

People don't want to turn up to work for that.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

No, and and quite often it's that freedom and flexibility that an employer will give them that is worth more to them than an extra 10 or 20k salary. Or, you know, sometimes they'll take the lower salary because they get the autonomy and the freedom and the flexibility.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

And yes, with with everything that's going on in the world with people's mental health, that people are want to choose happiness, they want to choose that positive workplace, they want to have that sense of belonging and purpose if they're gonna step out of their house every day and sit in peak out traffic or ride that train where you know it's standing room only, you know. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Yeah, so it's a very good point to to finish up on. Money is not the you know, often not the main driver. And it's quite the stats on that are quite interesting, aren't they? It's surprising how many people are driven more by um workplace satisfaction than the money of the salary. Yeah. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So um any closing thoughts, Sam, before we wrap up today? We will be running a workshop on this on the 24th of June. So if you have any questions around your business model or hiring, when to hire, not you know, um uh, and um the next one coming up is client service, how to maintain excellent client service.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

Any closing thoughts on hiring?

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Focus on keeping your staff happy in ways that extend beyond the bank account. That's what I think we need to we need to focus on. And hire people to keep yourself happy. Yes. Not working 80 hours a week anymore. I don't want people to come away from this thinking, oh my god, I'm not gonna hire anybody.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Yes, yeah. Um, it can give it give you enormous freedom, um, you know, to have a team of staff that can look after things when you're not there. So and and I see that with my partner, he's able to take holidays and his staff just run the ship, you know, and it's yes, definitely that is a lovely thing. So um we hope today's been helpful for you on the topic of when to hire or to to hire or not to hire. That is the question.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

And we look forward to being back with you um next week, all about the topic of um sustaining excellent client service. Until then, bye for now. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

You've got the strategies. Now let's build the systems. Whether you're joining our workshops or transforming at our barley business retreat, we're here to help you scale without the burnout. Visit Thriving Business Podcast.com to join our community. Until next time, keep building a business that thrives.