Ep #5 | Sell with Ease: How to Turn Conversations into Clients Without the Ick

Welcome to Episode 5 of the Roadmap to Business Success series on the Thriving Business Podcast, and the final episode of Quadrant 1: Revenue Generation!

If the word "selling" makes you cringe, you're not alone. In this episode, Kate and Sam get honest about their own complicated relationships with sales, why most people do it badly, and how reframing selling as serving completely changes the game.

"People don't mind being sold to, they just don't like being sold to poorly."

In this episode, you will learn:

• Why selling is actually serving: How shifting your mindset from "closing a deal" to "solving a problem" transforms every sales conversation, and why genuine curiosity is the only attitude you need to bring.
• The danger of aggressive sales processes: Why pushing someone into a yes when they're not fully committed creates disengaged clients, resentment, and a poisoned experience for everyone involved.
• Emotional intelligence in sales: Why active listening, reading the room, and picking up on subtle cues matters far more than any sales tactic or script.
• Why non-attachment is your secret weapon: How the less attached you are to the outcome, the more people want to work with you, and why turning clients away can actually make them want you more.
• How your foundations do the heavy lifting: When your business identity is clear, your offer is irresistible, and your marketing is aligned, sales becomes a natural conversation rather than a chase. Low conversion rates are feedback that something earlier in the process needs attention.
• The energy and alignment factor: Why there are months where every conversation converts and months where nothing does, and what that's really telling you about your clarity and alignment.
• Leads, pipelines, CRMs and customer journeys: A plain-English breakdown of the sales terminology that gets thrown around and what it actually means for your business.
• The golden rule of sales = follow up: Why so many sales are lost simply because people don't follow up, how to do it without feeling pushy, and why you should always leave a voicemail.
• How to handle ghosting professionally: Why ghosting is almost never personal, how to stay non-attached, and the follow-up message Kate sends a week after a "no" that keeps the door open beautifully.
• How you respond to "no" says everything: Why your reaction to rejection, in direct conversations and in public Google reviews, tells potential clients more about your character than almost anything else.
• The underrated power of post-purchase nurturing: Why what happens immediately after someone pays you is just as important as what happened before, and how to make every customer feel seen, valued, and excited about their decision.
• Treat every customer equally: Why the person who buys your $47 product deserves the same quality of experience as your $30,000 client, and why that's also just smart business.
• Retention over acquisition: Why a repeat customer is far more profitable than constantly winning new ones, and how to build the kind

Connect with Your Hosts:

Kate De Jong, PhD | Inspired Business 🌐 Website: https://katedejong.com/ 📱 Instagram: @katedejong.inspiredbusiness ✉️ Email: kate@katedejong.com

Sam Morris | The O8 🌐 Website: https://www.theo8.com/ 📱 Instagram: @the_o8crew ✉️ Email: sam@theo8.com

Thriving Business Podcast 🌐Website:   https://www.thrivingbusinesspodcast.com/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Thriving Business.

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Thriving Business Podcast. I'm Kate DeYong and I'm here with my amazing co-host in Melbourne. Hi, Sam. Hi, Kate. Can I can I reway from this episode?

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Yes. So Sam, do you love selling? Oh no. No. But look, even though I don't love it, it is a part of being in business. And you've got to do it. Correct. Yeah. So Kate, I know that you have done some amazing training and courses and you have some really good experience at selling. So I'm hoping that you can share a lot of wisdom today because I have always felt like my relationship with selling has been uh with people who must be really, really keen because I'm the probably the least pushy salesperson you will ever find. Yeah. I'll be like, are you sure you want to do this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

And I've um, you know, changed perspective over the years with with my approach to selling. Uh I know that yeah, back in the day I've done some really sort of aggressing sales courses and and they teach you certain techniques and tactics to try and close people. But I don't use those much anymore, I have to say, um, honestly. I I mean some of them I may use subconsciously, but I think where people struggle, and I still struggle with selling, is the whole um authenticity piece, right? And there's that saying where people say it there it there's a saying that says people don't mind being sold to. They just don't like being sold to poorly, yeah, or badly. We've all been in those icky, awful situations where you you you know suddenly you're in a situation where someone's trying to sell you something and they're getting desperate or they're trying all the tactics under the sun to get you to see the value, and all of a sudden you're like a deer in the headlights, and you're like, oh, this is not what I thought had I didn't know you were going to pitch to me and try to sell to me, and then you just want to run out the back door in those situations because it's so uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yes. And I mentioned this last week in the marketing episode about you know my love-hate relationship with Facebook because I'm constantly inundated on Messenger with people pitching. And look, do you know what? I get it a fair bit too on LinkedIn, which is why I really don't get on there an awful lot because I'm tired of the pitches, you know. As soon as you connect with somebody, yeah, they they have it automated. I mean, I I it's sales navigators. I'm in the game too, I know. Um but it's straight away, it's like, oh, how are you doing today? Good, thanks, how are you? Great, I've got this thing. So I and I received this the other day where I was having a very brief chat with somebody and they asked me about uh a particular marketing strategy, had I used it. And I said, Yes, I had actually not been quite successful at it, blah, blah, blah. And and the very next thing was, here's a booking link. And I and I knew I knew what was coming, and it really pissed me off, to be honest. And I said, What is that for? Oh, well, I work with this person who's an expert in blah blah blah blah, and we could really help you. At what point in that conversation did I express any interest in needing help with this? You didn't even ascertain if I had that problem.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, so that's a perfect example of being sold too poorly and you and it pissed you off, and it does. And yeah, all the time in in Messenger, in Facebook, you're right, and in LinkedIn. So and so people are using the LinkedIn sales navigator um automated process to reach out, make connections, and then as soon as someone connects, they send you a hi or a welcome message, and then there's a whole automation that follows. I have never done that process, I never will do that process because I don't want to spam people who don't know me with unsolicited pictures, you know, and it does work wonders for some people. I know there are some people that say they get really good results with LinkedIn with that cold outreach, as but I'm personally on a ban, and if someone does that to me, I tend to block mute them. And um yeah, yeah. And so I don't approach sales that way, and I know you don't either, Sam. I think um we want to attract and draw people to us. We don't want to push ourselves onto people through unsolicited pitches. So yeah, if we start back at the you know, the beginning where what is selling, and I think reframing it for sometimes can really help because selling is actually just about serving, right? It's about showing people what you have, and if it's what they need, then it should be a natural transaction. So there should be, there should not need to be any, you know, snake oil tactics or um, you know, yeah a lot of the sales courses that I've done, they some things do work, right? You end up giving people a choice of two things as opposed to just one because the choice becomes do you want A or B instead of yes or no in general. But I reserve those tactics for when I think the person genuinely needs options rather than it is actual sales tactic that I'm trying to use to get them to say yes. So I no longer um have the attitude, well, I guess it comes with experience in business too. But if someone needs what I have, then perfect. If they don't need what I have, then I will suggest them to someone that can help them if it's not me. Or, you know, now it's a genuine conversation about am I the right person to help you? If yes, this is the process. If not, um I know someone who could help you, or uh, you know, maybe it's a not now but later sort of thing. But I don't I think having that non-attachment now is what really helps me sell better because if if someone's not ready or it's not right, then that's great, you know, that's fine. Um, it happens all the time. And that's just part of, you know, but I'm not going to then hook them in. And I think what happened with us, Sam, in our previous experience, where we really had in a coaching company we were working with, rigorous sales process, where often you would really sort of aggressively get someone, you know, through a sales process that we had, get someone to say yes, and they would say yes and pay their money, but then they wouldn't show up or they wouldn't fully engage with the process, or it's really hard to reach them. And so if someone's not all in, they're not the right, you know, don't try and get them in because they're not, unless they're fully engaged and committed in the process, it's not going to end well.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Right. No, no, it's not. And and I have to say that uh part of my disengagement with being a coach for, you know, a period of time was the fact that I was working with far too many people who didn't really want it, but that sales process pushed them into it. Yes. And I didn't like it.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

No, and they didn't like it either. It wasn't a good experience for them either. Because they end up being resentful or it's money that they could have spent on something else. And so it just poisons that whole experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Yes, yes, it did. I saw this really clever thing. I can't remember where I saw it, but it did I uh it resonated with me, and it was said that a sales conversation should not be about your agenda, it should be about the customer's needs.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Absolutely. 100% curiosity is the only attitude you need to bring to the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Yes, yes, and anytime I am ever speaking to someone, and and this is where Kate, you your your emotional intelligence comes into play. Absolutely, particularly with the type of services that we both offer. Yeah. Because it's it's very much about invoking the listening part of you and shutting down the speaking part.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Absolutely. Telling is about listening, active listening. Yeah. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

So there are cues that people will give you, and sometimes the cues are very, very obvious because they will come right out and say, I want to work with you. Yeah. In which case, to me, that's an invitation to then tell people what this is how we work together, this is the price, this is the product, blah, blah, blah. If they don't already know. But if I'm not getting, you know, and the cues aren't always that obvious, but if I'm not getting the cues, I don't tell people about how they can work with me. No. Unless they've asked. Now, I may very well miss out on a sale, but I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yeah, that's right. Your integrity is more important. Yes. And their experience because they're not asking, you know, they will, but someone will ask in my experience, so what's the investment to work with you, or what's the process, or how does it work? And then at that point, you've got to be.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Is this something you can help me with, you know?

SPEAKER_00 9:14

And then and then you need to say um either with 100% confidence, yes, that is something I can help you with, or I don't think I am. And I'm often saying, I actually don't think I am the right person to help you with that. But you know, someone who's who's very experienced in trades, or you know, um, so yeah, having said that, that um well, and and you're 100% right that it's emotional intelligence is so important in the game of selling. And that's where people that sell poorly typically are not reading the room, they're not picking up the cues that you talk about, they're not sensing your body language. And oftentimes, if they do sense you retreating, they come back even more aggressively because their goal is to make the sale, you know, and and we don't want any of that. But um, and emotional intelligence, yes, is also around active listening and really, and as I said, being curious, what do they need? What are they, what is the actual pain point underneath all the stories? What's the thing they need help with that will solve you know the problems they're talking about? And you know, once you've really, and that should be your sole mission in a so-called sales call or a discovery call or anything, is trying to get a really good handle on what is that problem. What does it look like? What is it costing them? How does it show up? You know, yeah. So that should be your sole mission. Once you feel like you fully understand that, then you can offer a solution if you get the feeling that that's what they want.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Yes, yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

And or even though that's our attitude, Sam, what are your thoughts on? I've I feel even I think that's a great attitude to have. Um, and it works. In my experience, the less attached you are to the outcome, the more the person wants to work with you. Yeah. And quite often when I've turned clients away, because I've I really get the sense that this is going to be a hard person to work with, or and you actually say, Don't think I'm the right person, they quite often want to work with you then because you know they're feeling um, it's something about, and I know a guy who actually is a sales consultant who uses this approach. He tries to manufacture what he calls reverse psychology, where you become the one that is wanted and chased, as opposed to you chasing them. And that's the whole process that I know a lot of sales consultants use to try and reverse sell, is what they call it. So you're trying to get it to the point where the person in front of you, you're not chasing them, but suddenly you've turned things around so that they want to work with you. And I do understand the psychology behind that, but I also don't want to manufacture that when I'm in a conversation with someone and I want to do it naturally if it is natural, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yes. Yeah, I just it no matter which way you flip the egg, I that that just ring you know, it stinks of manipulation. Yeah. It's sleazy sales. Where any time you are using what people tell you against them instead of for them, you are manipulating people.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah. And I do understand there's value to that process. If someone is not doing a good enough job at expressing their credibility or their confidence in delivering a result, or you know, a lot of women need to be more um confident in how they present present their skills and experience and credibility and all of that thing. So, but there's a difference between doing that because it's genuine and you want to let this person know you're in safe hands because I've I've been doing this a long time and I've got this experience. That's different to look at me, how wonderful I am, so that you now want to work with me in manufacturing that. So I do think man um authenticity is absolutely key, but at the same time, don't be too humble, and that's a fine line to walk in selling.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah. People don't want to be sold too badly, but they also do need to know that you have the credibility and the experience to give them what they want. So and I know a lot of women are not good at at um portraying their credentials and expertise and so on.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yes. But look, I think I think we're pretty, I'm I feel confident in saying that we have a similar approach here. And Kate, you know, because we're we're a few episodes into our series now. Yep. And the thing that I would really love the listeners to understand is that when you have your business identity really nailed, and you know, like the pieces that have led up to now, you know, you have your business identity, you've crafted this irresistible offer, you've got your marketing down path. Correct. All of those things have to be in place in order for sales to be really easy because all of those things are filtering out the wrong people if those things are set up correctly. Correct. So then it becomes less about you know having to go out there and chase sales and do things. All of those things do a lot of the legwork for you because sales doesn't start the time person sitting in front of you to have a sales conversation.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

It started way, way, way before that.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

That's correct. Yeah, and thank you for bringing that up because that's why we put positioned this episode at this point in the episodes in the series. Yeah, it's you're 100% correct. When you are confident in your business identity, you know who you are, what you stand for, the results you can get for your clients when you um when you have an irresistible offer that you stand behind and you feel really confident about the pricing and the value, and um, and you know that you know the the transformation you're promising, and then you go to market and you've been educating your audience on what you can do and the results you can get. So, as you say, all that heavy lifting has been done. So by the time someone books in for a conversation with you or they ring, it is just a it is just a simple process of right, what's your specific problem? And is that something I can help with? And am I the right person to help with that? Yes, I think so. So yeah, and this is how we can work together if it feels like a good fit, you know. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

And that you know, the beauty of those sales conversations, because yes, all that heavy lifting should have already been done. But if you find that you've got a really low conversion rate from those sales calls or those conversations, this is where it isn't about, oh, I'm not selling. This is about, okay, this is really great feedback because somewhere in the previous steps, things have are going a little bit sideways. So that you know, that they've got an established idea or an established perception about what I'm like and what it would be like to work with me. And then they get on that call or they meet me and there's a disconnect, which means there is a failure somewhere earlier in the process.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

True. And that's what they talk about. This, you know, a sales process is that whole journey, isn't it? From first someone learning about you through to them being on a call with you or some point of engagement. If yeah, that whole process has to be aligned and feel consistent to the customer for that to work and to convert. You're right. And yeah, so I know a lot of sales consultants, that's what they look at, isn't it? The customer journey. What is your sales process and how are you? Well, I tend to call it a customer journey, that they call it a sales process, don't they? And but it's the same thing from first engagement, what's the journey you take someone on to the point where you've got them on a call? And if you are doing all that really good work and then you you're not converting in those conversations, you do need to question, and I do this at times. Sometimes I'll go through months where my conversion's a hundred percent. And everyone I speak to, you know, they they want to work with me. And then other times I'll go through months where no one converts. And then I'm like, what did I do different?

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Or um where did your energy level go? Because that was the next thing I was going to ask. Is that you know, there is an energetic exchange, there is an energy you bring to a sales call. So where was your energy in those loan months, Kate?

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Well, it's funny, Sam, because this often happens subconsciously. If I've got a project that I'm working on that I really want to finish at. So at the moment I'm writing a book, right? Well, I've got two on the go, but I really want to get this one book out. And funnily enough, I have no clients at the other than my regular ones, you know. So, and it's funny how you've got to be careful what you wish for. But now I'm just trying to bunker hunker down and make sure I use that time properly because you can't really fight. This is where it gets a bit woo-woo, but there is so much energetic stuff below the um conscious line with selling. People pick up on subconscious messages, and uh yeah, and there's a whole sort of universal thing that happens in there too, isn't there? Where if you've got a lot of chaos going on and you want it to calm down, suddenly the clients aren't converting. So I think, yeah, there I have been in in times where I'm really on fire and I'm really in, you know, client service mode and it and it flows. And other times I think I am in client mode, but my subconscious wants something else. And so yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting thing. And what do you do when you when that happens? And do you freak out or do you trust, you know? So do you trust that it will come good? You do have to, so this is where you know, I'm now pondering. I'm also in a process of pondering the next phase. What am I going to be offering? Right. So when you don't have that clarity, so my irresistible offer is not clear right now. So then that has an impact. So you do need to spend that time to get that part really clear and then feel so confident and excited to go out to market with it that, yeah. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Yeah, oh, I wholeheartedly agree. And I think, you know, when I was talking to you last week about marketing and how I had finally felt like I was actually in charge of the marketing that I was doing, and I was scheduling and I was enjoying the process, which was a very foreign concept for me. I was actually really enjoying creating all the content for this marketing and doing all that sort of thing. And where that has come from is the real alignment between the offer and like all of the pieces for the 08 have lined up, and all the pieces that we're working on together are lined up. So I have found that the marketing and the selling of these things feels really good.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yes, yes, exactly. And actually, when you and I got really clear on the purpose of this series and how we're running the workshops and the retreat, all of a sudden, yeah, the alignment's there and the excitement's there. And you and I are, you know, on a mission now. Yeah. And the energy's there and the momentum's there, which is really lovely. But when you don't have that, you can't all, yeah, it's hard to fight it. So I think that's why it's important that we're talking about these steps that you've got to go through to get to the point where you know, this is what you're you've just you've decided to do. It's all aligned, so the energy is good around it. People pick up on that and they want to be part of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yes. Yeah. So, Kate, I'd love to go through a few of the sales type terms because I think people get a little bit confused by things. Yeah. So let's talk about the difference between a lead and a sales process and a pipeline.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

And these are all terms that come from marketing like agency sort of things, aren't they? In digital marketing. And and I don't really like them because a lead is a person, right? So yes, it is. Yes. Um, but it is terminology that's thrown around a lot. But yeah, so a lead in digital marketing is someone who um is has has shown interest in your brand somehow, whether they've clicked on an ad or they've engaged with a post or they've signed up for something, they are then technically considered a lead. So they go into your, which in my mind they're a human that might need what you have to offer, right? They're a person that has shown interest in your brand. So then they come into your so-called pipeline and your sales process, where somehow all of us in business should ideally have a um a CRM, so a customer relationship management system that we use.

unknown 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Um, I use Go High Level, and basically the the lead, um, the the person is registered in your system as someone who's potentially interested in your brand. And then um It's what journey do you take them on from that point? They're now in your pipeline. So what's the customer journey that you take them on? And in my case, if someone signed up for my business builder's handbook, they get an automated email that sends them the PDF. Then I follow up with three or four emails over a space of two weeks, just um saying to them, giving them value about did you know this? And do you know which, you know, just um educating them, I suppose, on what the concepts that are in the handbook. So they're getting, and I've got videos in those emails. So they're getting to see me, hear me, read, you know, what I have to say. And yeah, then at the end of that pipeline, the and end of that journey, I should say, um, sometimes they engage on a sales call and then sometimes they don't. And so you're right, by the time I get on the phone call with them, they've already read five emails from me, they've heard five videos, they've watched five videos, and yeah, so that's sort of the customer journey. Um, and everyone needs to have some kind of customer journey because there's nothing, you know, more off-putting, I suppose, and if you do engage with a brand and you show interest and no one follows up, or if you're left sort of hanging and you don't get any attention, then it's like, okay, then well, I was interested, but um take it or leave it, I'm not really anymore. You focus.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

So yes, Kate, you've said the golden words of sales follow up. Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So many sales are lost because we don't follow up. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

And people are scared to follow up. They asked. I rang them and they didn't pick up. So did you try again? Oh no, I don't want to pester them.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

You know, so you've got to put yourself in the other person's shoes. When I think about how many times I've just been super busy or life just got hectic for a particular week, and like, oh yeah, I saw your call, but a week I'd forget about it because there's other chaos going on in life or business or whatever. And if they don't follow up with me, then the natural perception is that I've forgotten and they didn't care enough, I wasn't important enough, but then to try and call me again. I mean, don't call me every day three times a day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

But you know, make a concerted effort to follow up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yeah. You know, and you and I both had the same training where it's like you keep following up until they actually tell you to stop.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Yeah. Or you send the email that's um, I've been stalking you, you haven't responded, so I'm gonna stop now and wish you well well. And that's often the point where they go, no, no, no, I'm still interested. You know, keep following, keep it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. And don't be shy to follow it because you're right, it's never really a sign um that someone's not interested, it's a sign that they're too busy. Distracted, yeah. Distracted, too busy, and people take it personally or feel rejected way too quickly in this whole process.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Oh, yes, you've got to put your sensitivities away. Yeah. Because this isn't about you, it's about the customer. And they've already said to you, like, I I've got some kind of interest, because they have responded to show interest. They've given you an email, they've given you a phone number, they've given you something to indicate, okay, let's let's have the next conversation, let's have the next exchange. They've already given you permission to do that. So don't let them go. No, because very yeah, because you're gonna say because they didn't pick up the first time you rang.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Yeah. And they might not pick up the fifth time you rang.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

No, I mean, I've had days where I'm like, oh, my phone's put itself on do not disturb and I've missed 15 calls today. So sorry about that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

That's right. And if you don't leave a message, for goodness sake, don't ring and not leave a message. That is, yeah, if you don't do that. Um if you want someone to actually engage with you, leave a voice message. Even if they say they don't um listen to them, it gets registered. We all get notified if someone's left a voice message.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

That's right, because the lack of a voice message always, and you know, we all have our own stories around those things, but lack of a voice message to me says you are a spam caller.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

And we get and you're a telemarketer. That's honestly what I think. If you're not leaving me a message, you must be a telemarketer.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Yep, 100%. Yeah. So follow up, follow up. And if and so we have to talk about the topic of ghosting. Yes, we do. This happens and people ghost us.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah, yeah, it does happen. Again, you can't take it personally. No, look, there there are people that are gonna ghost you, and you can't let that stop you from standing up and talking about what you do.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

That's right. And ghosting doesn't always mean that they're not interested because I just had today on the back of that email that I sent yesterday, a client reach out and book in again. She reached out a month ago, booked in for a discovery call, and I had to shift it because something came up, and she and then I chased her, chaser to rebook and she never rebooked and wasn't answering calls, messages. And now she's booked in again. So sometimes it is just people are busy and distracted, and you've got to keep following up, you know. So and it's not it's not a personal, it's usually not personal. And even if they have ghosted you, it's it's still not personal, it's just not the right timing, and they don't have the guts to to reply to you and say, I'm sorry, now's not the right time, or I'm not interested, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yes, yeah, and you know, you've got to you you've got to use a little, you've got to use manners and you've got to use as professional. You sort of got to as you keep chasing, you don't become more aggressive, you become less aggressive. Yes. And I think and non-attach. Yes. Detach and be non-aggressive.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

But you're following up out of courtesy.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yes, because the whole point of the follow-up is to say, I'm here, I'm still here if you need me. I'm still.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

I haven't given up on you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yes. And so ghostings, one thing, oh, something else just came to mind. Um being professional. Oh, also, yes. If someone says no, how you respond can make a world of difference. So just to give you an example, I've had clients that get really upset when someone says no to them and they respond in a narky way or a rude way. Oh, well, you know, good luck finding someone better. Or and I just and I'm all horrified when I've seen and I've had to, you know, coach them through how you respond speaks volumes about your character. And they may have come back. And I have had clients come back, they've said no, it's not the right time. And then I just respond with, thank you for letting me know. If it be, you know, if at some point it's the right time for us to engage, please let me know. I'll keep you in my database and you know, um, if you want to stay in touch with what I'm doing. And don't um, you know, be rude or unprofessional because they they might be assessing how you respond to them to see whether they engage with you in future, because it can often tell them a lot about you know what you know what kind of professional you are.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Case I've 100% had clients decide to sign with me as their coach over somebody else simply because they did exactly that. They said no. And then the way that they were treated based on that no was a deciding factor into it becoming a yes. It was a test.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So how you respond says everything, and that's the same on Google reviews as well. If someone leaves you a bad review, don't don't be don't, you know, talk back and be rude, just acknowledge their complaint, um, or whatever it is, and say that you know you you weren't aware that that's the experience. They had a net you're sorry. How you respond, people see that in the public space. So people are often looking at how you respond to a negative complaint and always be professional, always be um assume it's not personal, it's not the right time, it's not the right product. Um, but yes, I think you and I both experienced that people come back to you when they see how you respond to something.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yes, yes. I here here is my piece of advice for today with regard to negative Google reviews or you know, negative reviews in general. Never ever get into a to and fro on that review platform. The best way to handle this is to thank them for their feedback and ask them to contact you privately to work through how you can resolve it. Great idea, yeah. Yeah, you never want to go argy bargy with someone on Google reviews. No, it's so unprofessional. Don't ever do it.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah, absolutely. And I've seen that play out just yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Uh it will undo the 55-star reviews you got before that one negative one. Correct. Because people love them some drama.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Yep. But that's a yeah, um, that's a great idea to invite them onto a private call so that you can talk it through and that but they can apologize, you can apologize or you can offer them something or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah. Yeah. So if someone's ghosting you or they say no, it's not a personal, you know, it's nothing personal. It's just do hope, you know, with me when it happens, I do reflect on did I stop doing something, or was my energy low, or was I, you know, and and yeah, make sure you do reflect on whether you showed up fully for that person or whether your pricing was right or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

But sometimes it's just not the right time or you're not the right fit for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Yeah. And here's the here's the follow-up that I like to use about a week after someone says no, I like to send them a message and say, hey, listen, I really enjoyed meeting you, having a conversation, you know, like tailor it to the circumstance and say, I really hope you found what you were looking for. If you need anything more from me, don't forget I'm always here for you. Always leave that door open. But I wait until a week because by then they've either found what they're looking for or they are still in the market looking and they may have changed their perspective or they may have different thoughts about, you know, working with you and things like that. But above all, I always try and leave that door open to something in the future.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yes, because it is all about timing. And that's where email marketing is so good because if you capture that person on your database and they're seeing regular communications from you and they're seeing, and you know, they might not have engaged with your coaching, but they might want to do your retreat or they might want to do your workshop, or you know, so that that might be more appropriate for their budget where they're at, or you just never see. I think that's great, a great phrase, always keep the door open. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Or they may refer people they know. Yes. They may still be a huge fan and tell other people about you. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yes. So yes, don't be an asshole. Exactly. That's it. Now, Kate, there's something really important that um that I want to talk about as well, because there are two sides to sales, I think. There is what happens before someone pays their money and what happens after they pay money. And I think what happens immediately after they pay you is very, very underrated.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

And so important, yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yes, and it is still part of your process. The customer journey, yes. Yeah, it doesn't just, you know, you can't just drop people off a clip as soon as you get their money.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

No. In fact, that's the time where you have to be really engaged with them because a lot of people get buyer's remorse or fear that spent all this money. Have I made the right decision? So that's the time you have to really embrace them and, you know, so excited to work with you. Here's the next steps. Book in your session here. Here's what you can do to, you know, really yeah, nurture them at that point for sure. That's important.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Yes, yes. And even if you're not a service-based business, you know, the way that you provide a product, even, there is so much to be said for elements of what happens after the sale with regard to the way you package your product, the instructions that come with it, uh, ideas of how to use it. There are so many things that are really simple to put in place that people just miss as part of the after sales.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yes. And you and I have been in a in a, you know, have had experience working with a company that the focus was all on the sale. And um the follow-up and the customer journey um following on from that post-sale was often neglected and was not paid as much attention as the um, you know, the pre-sale process and leaves a really bad taste in people's mouths, and they really feel ripped off, or they feel like, oh, I was just a number, I was just in the statistic. And now that you've got me in, um the cut the care has dropped off, and you never want someone to feel like that.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

No, not at all. Not at all. And you know, so much of the the touch points that need to come after the exchange of money can be automated. Like that there is no excuse for not having a really robust, you know, hug for the new person that's right, you know, given, you know, spent some money with your business.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yes, yeah. So if you're in e-commerce, make sure every sale is nerd, you know, every post post-purchase is nerd, person's nurtured, made to feel um, you know, um that you're grateful for them, that you see them. And same with the service, you've got to have a follow-up, a very tight nurture process after they've purchased. It's a really good point. Yes, yes, go and doesn't stop at the at the sale. You've got to then deliver but nurture, and the customer needs to feel valued.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Absolutely, absolutely. And uh I hate to talk about this in the concept of selling more to people, but you know, if if the person that's bought your$47 product could very well be the person that also needs your$300 product and your$3,000 product and your$30,000 product. Correct. So the way you treat the$47 customer should be equal to, if not, well, not better than, but they should get the equal service and experience that the$30,000 customer gets.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Correct. Because again, they're testing you, they're trying to see if I spend$47,000. If I spend$47, am I going to get express a good experience?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Yes. I'm I'm gonna share, I think I've told this story before, but I'm gonna I'm gonna tell it because I feel like it's relevant here. Uh the story of like, you know, there is a certain car dealership that, you know, I've I've had a few over the years had a few cars from there, and and I've gone back to the same dealership to when it's time for me to get a different car. And it is fascinating, you know, because the way they treat me every single time I go there is like I am the only customer that ever matters to them. And I love that experience. And you know, they treat every person that walks onto their car lot the same. Because here's the thing is that the person with a million dollars in their back pocket isn't necessarily the person that's got all the bling and and all the things. That's right. You stand two blokes up, one in a suit and one in his trading gear, and you cannot tell me which one has the money and which one has more buyer intent. You you can't distinguish by just looking at somebody. Correct. So every person deserves to be treated like they are your number one customer.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Correct. And authentically, not gushy, inauthentically.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Authentically.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Authentically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Yes, yes. I go to this car dealership and they treat me like a friend. You feel like a VRC. I know I'm a customer, like logically, I know a customer, but the feeling I get from them is that I'm welcome whether I buy a car or not. Yeah. And, you know, and they hold events and things like that, and they ring and they say, Come on down, you know. And they know they know that I love the Prosecco van down there. They're like, We've got the Prosecco down here on Saturday, you know, Prosecco van on Saturday. Come down and say hi.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Oh, okay. That's real customer service.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

And that is customer service. They know how to nurture their customer base.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

So they get that long-term loyalty. And we should mention that the cost of acquisition, um, like a repeat customer, um, is way more profitable than a one-off sale, you know. So when you've got that, you know, we all have sort of the cost of acquisition, which is the cost to get a customer on board, which is all the effort we put into sales and marketing and so on. But to retain that customer is way more profitable than to keep winning new customers. So it's extremely important to make existing customers feel valued and special and keep them coming back.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yes. And look, in any business, there is a lot of pride in being able to say that you have had customers that have been with you for years. Because if you are able to say that, then that's a much better conversation to have with somebody than, oh yeah, no, but three months, one and done. People are gone. That's right. It makes you well, why why do people not stay longer and work with you? What's what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Yes. Yeah. People ask, you know, say, say to me, How long do you work with people? And I say, well, sometimes it's just three months. That's all people need. And I've got some clients that have been with me with for five years and they're still going. So you know, to just um, yeah, and people want to hear that you do have that longevity and that you do, you know, have that ongoing relationship. So yeah, it's important. Great point, Sam. So we have to wrap up this episode. What would be your closing remarks?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

That you are in business, you do have to sell. So this is the time when you have to explore the way that feels best for you and gives your business the best results. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Yeah. Yep. Selling um feels different for each of us, but we all have to do it and find a way to get comfortable with it and find a way to do it that feels authentic and non-salesy and non-icky. And in for me, that just comes down to what you said earlier: being curious about clients and what do they really need, and and figuring that out, getting really clear on it, and then proposing the solution if if you know that you can help them. So yeah, it's that simple, really, when it comes down to it. But definitely make sure you have that process where you take people on a journey, that you do nurture them if they become a client. It's all very important in people's experience of you, and therefore word of mouth and reviews and so on. So yeah. I think we did a good job in covering everything we learned about selling over the last you know, few years together. We've been doing this since before COVID together, I think.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Oh, yes, since before COVID.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Yeah, hope that would give everyone a good um understanding of you know selling, and that finalizes the four episodes on revenue generation. So that's the end of quadrant one. And next episode we will be moving into quadrant two, which is all about profitability and keeping the money that you earn and making it work for you.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yes, and I can't wait. So I especially can't wait to work with everyone on all of the quadrant one topics at the workshop.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Me too. So 15th of April, we will be um sending you all that the links and details. Book in if you like free coaching. Well, sorry, not free coaching, live coaching, I meant to say. Live coaching, small in a word. There is a small investment for to get our eyes on your business and to figure out where the gaps are in your revenue generation. So we look forward to seeing you there on the 15th. Thank you so much, everyone. Bye after now. You've got the strategy.