Ep #9 | Systems Before Staff: The Smart Way to Outsource, Delegate and Hire

Welcome to Episode 9 of the Roadmap to Business Success series, and the final episode of Quadrant 2: Keep More | Profitable Operations!

You can't outsource chaos. Before you bring anyone into your business, you need systems, clarity, and a clear understanding of what you're actually handing off. In this episode, Kate and Sam get practical about the smartest way to automate, delegate, outsource, and hire — in that order.

"Systems before staff. You cannot delegate chaos."

In this episode, you will learn:

• The automate → delegate → hire framework: Why this is the right order , and what goes wrong when business owners skip straight to hiring before foundations are in place
• Zone of genius vs everything else: How to identify the tasks only you should be doing, the tasks AI can handle, and the tasks that need a human
• How AI is replacing the need for a VA: How Sam used the Claude Chrome extension to build detailed standard operating procedures while she played games on her phone
• Hire slow, fire fast: Why hiring should be a financial decision before a workload decision, and why desperation hiring almost always goes wrong
• Write your job ad for culture, not just skills: How to attract the right candidates from the first line, including Sam's hidden keyword trick that instantly filters out applicants who lack attention to detail
• Layla Hormozi's five C's: Compliance, clarity, culture, connection, and checkback, the framework Sam incorporated into her most recent hiring process
• Give people responsibility, not just tasks: Why the best hires want ownership and autonomy, and how a long-term vision keeps them loyal

This episode wraps up Quadrant 2. Next up — Quadrant 3: Grow Smart | Capacity.

Join the Workshop: 

Kate and Sam are hosting Profit Unlocked on Wednesday 20 May, 9–10:30am AWST | 11am–12:30pm AEST 

What is it? 90 minutes of live profitability coaching. Every participant walks away with a personalised report.

🐦 Early bird: $49 (until 10 May) | 🎟️ LIVE: $89 | 🎧 Replay: $49

👉 Register here

And save the date — Bali Business Retreat: 27 August - 1 September 2026. Secure your spot with a $200 deposit. Reach out directly to lock in your place.

00:00 Show Welcome
00:30 Roadmap Recap
01:49 Claude Extension Wins
06:09 SOPs Before Delegation
11:05 AI Reports Workflow
15:07 Back to Delegation
18:35 What to Outsource
23:28 Hiring Lessons
25:55 Hiring Framework Reel
26:52 Five Hiring Elements
29:33 Hire Slow Fire Fast
30:36 Values Over Skills
32:57 Write Better Job Ads
35:07 Easter Egg Screening
36:01 Job Market Reality Check
39:11 Ownership And Incentives
44:09 People Management Fit
46:04 Key Takeaways And Next Steps

Connect with Your Hosts:

Kate De Jong, PhD | Inspired Business 🌐 Website: https://katedejong.com/ 📱 Instagram: @katedejong.inspiredbusiness ✉️ Email: kate@katedejong.com

Sam Morris | The O8 🌐 Website: https://www.theo8.com/ 📱 Instagram: @the_o8crew ✉️ Email: sam@theo8.com

Thriving Business Podcast 🌐Website:   https://www.thrivingbusinesspodcast.com/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Thriving Business, the podcast for ambitious business owners who want systematic growth without the burnout. Hosted by Kate De Yong and Sam Morris, these business powerhouses bring you proven frameworks and real strategies to help you build a business that actually thrives.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Welcome back to the Thriving Business Podcast, everyone. We are very excited to be here with you again today. I'm here with my co-host Sam in Melbourne. Hello, Sam. Hello, Kate. So, just as a reminder to everyone where we are at on the journey of the roadmap to business success, we are today going to be wrapping up Quadrant Two, which is all about profitability and keeping the money that you earn and making it work for you. So, um, for those that haven't been with us on the journey, we started off in the revenue generating quadrant. Um, we had our workshop on that topic last week, which was a great success. We had a lot of fun helping people get their revenue generating plan together. Um we are currently just in the process of sending out their AI generated reports about how they can optimize their revenue generating strategy. So if you missed that one, don't worry. We've got the um we've got our next workshop coming up, coming up on the 20th of May, which is all about profitability, making your money work for you. So far in profitability, we covered off money mastery, which is where Sam took us through the profit first methodology. Then we moved into pricing strategy, how to price your products and services for value, not time. And last week we had the very fun topic of AI systems for efficiency, which was we had a lot of fun with that. Um and yeah, coming off the back of that episode, Sam, as she does, has been playing with AI. Um, and today's episode is all about outsourcing and delegating, when to do that and how. And we started off when we um hopped on the call today. Sam and I were talking about what she's been working with recently in AI, and she started telling me all the exciting things she's learned about Chrome extensions for Claude. I said, Stop, let's just give everyone an update of what you've learned in this last week, coming off the back of our last episode on AI. And then we'll segue into outsourcing and delegating because it's all kind of part of the same topic, which is efficiency in your business.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yes, and I think that the two tie in so beautifully, particularly in everything that I've been doing over the past week. So I started telling you, Kate, about the Clawed Chrome extension. Yes. I mean, it's not a brand new thing, but it's the first time that I have had a play with it, and I absolutely love it. I've actually, this never happens to me. I actually chewed through all of my Claude credits using the Chrome extension. Wow, yeah, which takes a lot because you're on the pro plan. I am on the pro plan, yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

The medium tier or the top tier? Because one of them is about the top tier. I'm not I'm not that fancy with it. Yeah, so it's about$35 Aussie dollars a month. That is something like that, yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, but it's portable. Yeah, and considering considering the capability now, um, you know, now that we've got Claude co-work, we've got the Claude Chrome extension and Claude Design. Have you had a play with that? I have not, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Have you heard of Claude Design? I have not. Sam, you're here too. And I have to say, I've I love to usually pride myself on being, you know, on the forefront of everything that's coming out, but no, I'm not currently. So you'll have to update me.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Oh, look, I don't want to speak too much right now about Claude Design, but needless to say, game changer. Um I haven't had a very big play with it. I haven't had time yet. I've been doing so much with with the extension. The extension.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So the reason this ties in so beautifully today with uh with outsourcing and delegation is the way that I've used it over the past week. Okay. That is, you know, for as a brief sort of explanation of how this extension works. You open a tab on your computer and then you click on the Chrome extension, and it then creates side-by-side window. You have Clawed on one side of your screen, and the tab you have open on the other side. Now, where I started my week was feeling really, really unproductive and just feeling like I was getting bogged down in things and going down rabbit holes and not getting through all of the work that I need to get through. Part of my problem I felt is that I did not have enough detailed steps at within the tasks that I needed to complete. For example, Kate, we're you know, doing work on the podcast, thinking about the tools and AIs that I use to do my part, you know, you know, you do your bit, I do my bit. But I didn't have enough detail in there of what I was using, when, how, et cetera, et cetera. So I open up the Claude extension, I had my Google tasks open, which is what I've been using, and I said, right, have a look at the tasks that I'm doing. I need these to be more details. These are the tools that I'm using, run comparisons of the tools, identify which tasks are most suited to which tools I already have. And I sat there and watched the magic happen while I played with my phone. So goo the the Claude Chrome extension, then in front of my eyes, first of all, it can it creates a plan of what it's going to do, and you have you approve the plan. Okay. And then you sit there and you watch it as it opens things up and assesses things and asks you questions, and it totally built out processes for me with lists of tasks and everything inside Google Tasks. And I sat there and played games on my phone while it did it.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

This is actually amazing because the topic of today is outsourcing and delegating. And one of the things we talk about all the time is you can't outsource and delegate until you have processes in place that are going to set up the person to succeed, whether you're outsourcing, you know, bringing in a virtual assistant or hiring someone, staff or contractor, they have to have systems in place to follow, otherwise they're going to fail. And we see that all the time. So this is like the precursor to that process whereby we can now very easily set up these standard operating procedures, right? Is it that sort of what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yes. And in actual fact, this is exactly what I did using a different AI. But I did do this. I I was at the point where uh our previous admin had left PSM.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

And which is your business that you ran with your husband and automotive um maintenance business, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yes. So the admin fell to me while we were in that gap. And I decided, I I won't explain the reasoning behind because I I can't remember now, but I decided I was going to go down the pathway of an Australian VA. Right. Um, I think there were a number of things there, like, you know, me not having to be on site to do training, you know, they all already come highly trained in things. But I knew that I didn't have things documented the way I would need for the VA to be successful. And I'd had enough VAs over the time to know that this is pretty cool in how successful the support you hire is going to be.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Correct. Which is why you typically, until recently, you've often needed an agency as a middleman between a virtual assistant and yourself, because the role of the agency is to set up the processes and procedures to enable that virtual assistant to succeed. And often the business owner doesn't know that process in a way that's going to, you know, um support that VA. So yeah, that's you know, in the past, Sam, when people would say, Oh, can I have the contact details of your virtual assistant? And and I in the beginning would give the contact details, but and and in the end, they would always end up failing because the business owner just thought they could, oh, bring this person in and get them to do all this stuff without clearly defining what those tasks are, clearly defining what success looks like, what's what the quality control points are along the way. And they would end up so you know failing. So then I'd start sending clients to towards virtual assistant agencies because then the agency could control that whole onboarding setup process, quality control. But now it seems um that that's something that we can actually do fairly easily ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yes, yes, and look, even there there are certain areas in which I had operating procedures and and things set up already. But the problem we have as business owners is that we often are doing things uh like from muscle memory, you know, like we we just know how to do it. So when we create an operating procedure for someone else to come in and do it, we come at that task from a position of skipping over the nuances that make it either successful or a failure for someone else to come in and do it.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

It's in the detail, isn't it? That yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

And this is where AI has played such a fantastic role in even the even the operating procedures I already had set up. I was like, go in and review what I've done, identify the steps that are missing. But what I love about AI is the engagement, it's the questions that it's asking me about, you know, but questioning why are you doing this here, why are you doing that, picking up all of the gaps that were in what I already had to make these operating procedures far more complete and far more helpful to the person that needs to do the job.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Yeah, that's amazing. So if we if we um and just as a side thought, someone said the other day that they'd heard um on the podcast that someone said AI is the thing that is going to enable solopreneurs to become multimillionaires. And isn't that so interesting? Because until now we've been constrained by cash flow uh enabling us to do the outsourcing and delegating. But now, for such a low price point, you can outsource and delegate so easily and quickly, which means we're therefore freed up to do the revenue generating stuff, which is very, very exciting. And the whole industry is going to have to adjust because virtual assistants will need to find a new role that's meaningful, you know, that in a way that actually adds value. So we're all having to adjust and shift. Um, but yeah, things are so things are changing so quickly, and I find it super exciting. It is.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

It is and we should also talk about, you know, even the way that we use AI to produce the reports for all of our beautiful participants in the workshop last week. Yes. So when we say AI generated reports, let's be really clear about how we used AI to do that. Yeah. We did those reports in Notebook LM. And those reports were generated from the clients' websites, the notes we took and from the transcript of that workshop discussion.

unknown 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

So all based on actual things, you know, because notebook won't create anything outside of the sources that you give it.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Correct. Yeah. So we actually fed it really good material, the transcript of the workshop, which was a really rich discussion, then their websites and um and and the notes that we took. And as yeah, I've been quite blown away at the insight it's giving each of the participants based on that information about what they can do to increase their revenue generations.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, it's it was really exciting to see those reports come to light.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yes, it's amazing. And Sam, just to wrap up on the Claude extension piece.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

So um basically, you have been using that to help you identify inefficiencies and then in your in how you're doing things and then create new processes that are more detailed that allow you personally to have more streamlined systems that you follow, as well as when you're outsourcing anything or hiring staff in your other business, that that's all really clearly defined.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah. So, you know, there there are many different aspects to, you know, Claude alone. I'll just talk about Claude in this instance because you've got you've got Claude chat, and that is a really good environment in which to, you know, sort of brainstorm ideas and things. The Claude extension is really great for these one-off tasks. Like this isn't a recurring task. Recurring tasks are better off to live in Claude co-work. Right. Yeah. And and of course, Claude design is that is is something very exciting that I'm going to play with this week, but that's all about I can't see it on the just looking at Claude.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

I can't see it as one of the options on the dashboard. But is is that something is that a whole other how do you access Claude Design?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

That is a very good question. And I believe, I believe I just googled Claude Design.

unknown 13:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

And I had to add it in somehow. I can't remember now.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Okay. Hmm. We shall keep everyone updated.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yes, yes, I'm gonna play with that and then I'll tell you all about it next week.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

But when you but I'm guessing it's something to do with um assistance with graphic design and so yes, yeah, because someone introduced me to last week to the meta version of that. Um, and they've they ran an event on the weekend and it had uh designed their banners, it had designed all their um their pop-up um beautiful designs everywhere. It's just I was blown away. Um so and I I it's very remiss of me that I cannot remember the name of that, but apparently it's mind-blowing in terms of creating graphic design based on your branding. So yeah, Claude up until now did not have that functionality, which was which was um quite, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Well, you know, they're they're highly, highly competitive. And so yeah, Claude, Claude has once again stepped up to the plate. Uh, particularly the integration with Canva. I'm very excited to sort of flex. But having said that, you know, Canva has just updated their AI, and uh so that's doing a lot of fantastic things, and you can engage with the AI during the design process inside Canva. Right. Wow. Yeah, so Canva's sort of stepping, really stepping up into this arena as well. But anyway, uh we digress. So automation, delegation, hiring. Correct. They're really important components for you know, for businesses like ours that are running off one, two, three, five people. And uh in order to get that really scalable growth happening, you need more help. You need to be able to do things. The competitive landscape now, you know, it it's sped everything up exponentially. And there were you're right, there was a long time where small business owners felt like they couldn't compete because they couldn't generate the marketing output and and all the rest of it. Correct, yeah. You know, and even service-based businesses like we are, the what we are capable of producing now for clients is like worlds away from when you and I first met.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Oh amazing, yeah. When we would spend two days writing a blog.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yeah, things have come a long way. So you said automate, um, delegate, hire, right? So um is that right?

SPEAKER_01 16:19

You said that in that yeah, those three things I think are really uh important and they're challenging for entrepreneurs because we like to think that we are the special ones and we are the only ones that can do it our way.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

And it is the big downfall of many, many businesses.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah, so the whole intention behind this um topic is to free your time for the high value work that actually generates the revenue. So this is about knowing exactly what to hand off, when to hand it off, and who to bring in. So it's it's delegating without losing control or quality. Um yeah, so the the automation we've you know, we've covered off in the last episode and and even just today, some of the ways in which you can so easily automate things now to you know to be to be operate more efficiently. Um yeah, the delegating piece. So you've you and I have been on this journey for for years now, where we as we as we talked about, we used to delegate to virtual assistants and and now you know we can do those things ourselves. So just as an example of that, the this podcast production, we used to rely on a virtual assistant to do all the work. And now you and I've spent some quite some time figuring out how do we use AI to do that ourselves in a relatively small amount of time, and now it's manageable for you and I to do that. Um, and also quite fun. It is fun using all these tools, but yeah. Um, so when it comes to the topic of outsourcing, um, and we talked about the critical need to set up these standard operating procedures so that you bring when you bring someone in, they actually can succeed in the role. What's some more um before we go move to hiring? Because that's the next logical step, right? Once you've automated, once you've delegated as much as you can, or outsourced, then then the next move is hiring. So we'll we'll touch on that subject because you've been through that quite intensely in the last few months. Yes. But on the topic of outsourcing and delegating, what are some of the critical things we could share today?

SPEAKER_01 18:35

I think that the first step in this whole process is to take the time to sit down and make a list of uh everything that you do. And if you can't remember everything you do, then just make a note of everything you do over the course of a week, for example. Yes, because the first thing you need to do is identify out of all the things that you're doing, what are the things that you absolutely hate and you're really awful at, like they're just not sitting in a world where you know it comes naturally to you to do. And you know, and we are talking we are talking about zone of genius versus zone of excellence, you know, all of those things. But there's things that you hate. There's things that you don't mind doing, and they're okay, and you can you can probably do it pretty quick, but they don't really feel inspirational and joyful for you to do. Um, you just can do it, you know. Yeah, and then there are the things that would be the accounting for me. Yeah, and then we've got the tasks that really make your day the best day it could possibly be. And those are the tasks that are sitting inside your zone of genius, and typically the revenue generating ones, and they should be revenue generating. Absolutely. Revenue generation should sit solely with the business owner, that responsibility. Yeah. So once you work out what you're gonna do and what you're not gonna do, then you've got to look through the list of what you're not gonna do and work out whether that list, you know, each thing on that list is something that can be automated or something that does need a human to do it.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Yeah. And we talk about um systems before stuff. You cannot delegate chaos. Simple systems must be in place before you outsource or delegate or hire, or that, you know, as we've said, um, it's not going to work. So getting that really clear overview, as you said, of what are all the things I do in my business? What are the things I only can do and that I love and that are the revenue generation? Because we should it's also um being in your zone of genius, we know how much that influences your mindset and the positivity and good things start flowing when you're operating in that space. So then of all the stuff that's left outside your zone of genius, as you said, which parts can a human do? Which parts do I um which parts do a human need to do, and which parts can I get AI to work on for me? And I think we talked about this last week. You can ask AI that question as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Absolutely, absolutely. Once you've got this list, this is where you can have this interaction and this brainstorm with your AI tool of choice and really help you sort through that because working that out for some people is a real challenge. Yes. Yes. It's really good to try and get some help to work out what that list looks like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

And it sounds like things like um, now you've got all the tools at your fingertips. Claude in itself is just very good with it with its baseline. Is it sonnet? 4.6 is the oh 4.7.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

7 latest. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Oh gosh, I'm not updated by the oh Opus 4.7 is that?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got 4.7 now. Wow, I need to switch over. There should be a little thing in there telling you that there's an update and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Gosh, okay. Um, yeah, there's just a little toggle bar that I've seen there that I can start using Opus 4.7. Amazing, because I've already been blown away by the the Sonnet 4.6. But yes, that is such a valuable tool, just in brainstorming. Hey, this is what I'm doing in my business. You know, give can you give me some guidance on how I can streamline and and and um optimize so that I'm focusing on these tasks? Um, so yeah, basically, we're saying figure out all the things you do do, figure out um which ones you can um use AI for, which ones do you need a human to do. In that case, if you do need a human to do them, um as we said, it's just about setting up really clear role expectations for that person. And now we're sort of moving into the hiring piece, which um yeah, definitely I've had you know worked with small businesses where they have hired too quickly before they've got all this stuff in place, and it just goes pear-shaped every time. So yeah, we then take a step back, get all their systems and processes in place before they hire someone. So, Sam, you've been through this process recently a lot.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Tell us some of the learnings you've had through your hiring experiences.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Uh, Kate, I'm gonna tell you. So I have drawn from two gentlemen, apart from my own experience working in auditing in the HR industry, also two gentlemen I've been listening to over the past, you know, however many years when it comes to hiring and firing. One Simon Sinek, as I know, because you know that's the leadership factor. But the other person that I've listened to, and I've sent my husband like lots of TikToks and reels, the things Gary B. Right. Because he does talk a lot about how he views hiring and firing, and how he views top performers, and how he, you know, what kind of people he has and things like that. Right. The other one, which was a shock to me, was I came across a reel the other day, and I actually used the content of this reel to get Claude to help me to generate a letter of offer. Oh, great. Okay, tell us more. And this reel was by Alex Hermozy. Right, yeah. Now I I'm not a I'm have not been a Hermozy fan, um, but I haven't seen any of Alex's stuff. I've only seen her husband's stuff, haven't seen her stuff. So there were five key elements that she was talking about uh with business, which I absolutely loved and I incorporated that.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

But what I want to say first of all is sorry, when you say she, because Alex Homozy is a man.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Oh, sorry, sorry. Yes, yes, Alex Hormosy is a man. Um, what what's his wife's name?

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Oh, okay, not sure. Um let's look, um but they're in business together, are they?

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, what's her name?

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Um Layla. Layla, okay. Yeah. Layla or mosey. Yeah, okay. Entrepreneur investor fancy.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Okay, I hope the Hormosy fans don't come for me.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

But yes, they have a huge following. They have scaled together businesses to over 200 million um in yearly revenue. Yes, yes. So their uh main website is acquisition.com, which is focused on scaling operations and business development. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yeah, so so I'm not a fan of Alex Homozy's style. No, I'm not questioning, I'm not questioning his abilities at all, but just his style. I it just doesn't click with me, that's all yeah. But I did see this real and I was like, that is brilliant, I'm gonna use it. And I should I should bring up the five key elements that she included. I'll do that while I'm talking.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

So you're actually a first-generation Iranian American, it sounds it seems transitioned from facing personal financial struggles to building a multi-million dollar empire. Is it Layla, Layla or Mosin? Yeah, it definitely looks very Persian. She's beautiful, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Very beautiful looking.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we are digressing. That she did a reel that you saw or a TikTok, and there were five five key things that she talked about.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yes. So uh the the five key things that she talked about in business, and the first one was compliance. So you need to have your compliance in order, and that's your operating procedures and your policies and things like that. So you've got to have that in place. Yeah. Systems and processes, have those in place. Leadership, which we know is a very big one. Yeah. Gotta you've got to you've got to relate to yourself as once you start hiring people, you have to position yourself as a leader. You can no longer just identify as this business owner because the mindset behind a business owner is very different from the mindset of a leader.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

And you do need to transition over.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah. Um, and we will be getting to that in the fourth quadrant of our Thriving Business Wheel, which is all about leadership. Yes, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yes, yes. Um, the next one was quality and standards. So understanding what all that was. I actually should have got my phone out because I've photographed that.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Um we were talking about the quality control checkpoints and um making sure things um are up to standard before being sent to clients or published online or social media, whatever it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah. So number one was compliance, company rules, paperwork, that kind of thing. Yep. Um, the second one, oh, the second one was clarity, having a very clear job description. Yes. And also, she said having for each staff member 30, 60, and 90-day goals. Right. Which was very interesting as well, because a lot of people don't do that. Number three is culture. And not necessarily what culture you have now, but having a clear understanding of what culture you want in your organization. Yeah. Um, and she I love this, she described culture as the unspoken expectations within your organization. That's so good. Uh, number four was connection. So that's where that's the way in which your team all connects with each other. Right. And number five, she said, was checkback. So that's having regular communication with people, doing one-on-ones, things like that, and making sure that there is uh two-way communication for people, which is really open. Yes.

unknown 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

So yeah, so I did incorporate that. But um what I wanted to go back to was when you decide that you are in a position where you need to hire someone, the first thing is that that should be a financial decision before it is a I'm desperate, I have too much work decision. Because when it's when you're in a position financially when you can afford to hire, that that means that you can do what Gary V says, which is hire slow and fire fast. And I really think that's an important point. Is that you really want to try and make sure that you are hiring the right person. Because when you are desperate and under pressure with workload, you tend to skip parts of the hiring process that are critical to making sure you're bringing the right person on board.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Interesting. I love that. Hire slow, fire fast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

That's a good one. That that one definitely stuck with me. Thank you, Mr. Yeah. Um, the next one that I wanted to talk about with regard to hiring was don't just look at the skill set that is listed on paper. Just because somebody does, just because somebody's capable of doing a job does not mean that you should hire them. Sometimes the less skilled person is the much better hire because what is what they value should align with what you value. Correct. Yeah. Rather than just that they can tick off a list of skill set that they need.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yeah, skills can be learned, but it's the attitude and the emotional intelligence that someone brings that is more important. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

The other thing too, Kate, is try not to hire a carbon copy of you. Because the whole benefit of having a team or having, you know, even one other person is the ability to have fresh eyes look at things from a different perspective. And if you've got someone that sees things just the way you do, then you're creating massive blind spots for yourself in your business.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Yeah. This is where we often bring in like personality profiling tools where you know you hire the opposite of what you are. So if if you're someone who's big picture and you know, action-oriented, or you yeah, um strategy-oriented, then you need someone who's focused on the detail and can pick up, you know, loves working in the detail. Yeah. So complementary um to yourself, not the same as yourself.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, yeah. I like to think of the team as a jigsaw puzzle. Yes, and you have to have all the pieces. You're just one piece, but you need all different kinds of pieces to make this jigsaw complete. So yeah. Yeah. I just think you I know that I know the initial reaction is I just need another me, but the other me you need is skills-based and not personality-based or values-based, or you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah, yeah. And so what you were saying was you asked Claude to develop a job, a um job description based on those five elements that Layla or Morrisy came up with. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, I yeah, I included them in the letter offer of offer. I did actually, yeah. So I've been through the hiring process many, many times now and had lots of failures at it and learnt lots of lessons along the way. And the point I've reached now is understanding that when you know it all starts with how you write the ad. Yeah, you're gonna put up looking for the person.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

And it filters out those that are not in alignment with that culture that you're seeking, or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

So I get I have Claude help me write the ads.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

And I always start by saying, This is the kind of person I'm looking for first. The skills come next because obviously, you know, there has to be, you know, like we I'm looking for a particular trait. Yeah. So obviously they have to have trade qualifications, can't get a bit of that. And I we we don't run apprentices um in our business, we can't do that. So they need to qualify. Yeah. Yeah, they need to have specific licenses, that sort of thing, to be able to do the work. But as a small team, we do need a cultural fit.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

So I start, it starts right at the ad where if you write the ad to suit a particular to appeal to a particular kind of person, number one, you're gonna start attracting better candidates that suit your business.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Right. You're filtering out the ones that just don't resonate with that at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah. Yep, absolutely. So it it really starts there in considering how you're actually going to advertise.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

So if you had, you know, if you had just a generic skills-based ad and you might get a thousand people apply, but you've got then got to filter through those that, you know, or let's just say a hundred people apply, you've got to filter through all those hundred applications, yeah. Which yeah, just vary vastly. But if you have a very specific um job description, then you'll get a hundred, you might still get, you might only get 50 people apply, but they're much more homed into the to the cultural fit that you need.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Yeah. Now, I'll I'll give this one away. Uh I put an extra egg in my job ads. So the at the very end, I give them a keyword that they must use in their cover letter. Oh. Because one of the things I'm looking for in a candidate is attention to detail. So a little thing like that can straight away eliminate all the people that don't drop that keyword into the cover letter.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Because again, you can use AI and say which applications use the word. And if they don't, then they're out. Yeah, absolutely. Because people, when they're looking for jobs, just get into that habit of sending a blanket letter, which is the worst thing you can do. Like you've got to really take the time to specifically address an application. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

What I had most recently, Kate, was really interesting because I had, you know, the the the hire that I've most recently done, I started the ad in one job category on Seek. And then the candidates that were coming through, I'm like, no, this isn't working, they're not who I'm looking for. So I changed the category on Seek so that it was advertised under a different type of job. Right. And what I noticed was, and I don't quite know how this works in Seek, but I was still getting a lot of applicants based on the old category. And it's so evident to me that people are churning out these, you know, application letters. And even the people that had written the cover, I think it was a copy-paste job, a lot of them. Yeah. Uh so you know, looking for people that were doing things like actually writing a cover letter instead of just dumping a resume on the and that actually researched your company and they and they know what you do, and they're yeah, yeah. Use the company name in the letter of application. Uh actually address the criteria that we've listed.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Which you think would be a fairly minimal thing to ask. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yes. And you know, like I honestly, I'm blown away by the people that are out there in the job market looking for work. Like the qualifications and skills, and I find it fascinating looking at people's job history and what they've done. It's amazing. But that yeah, the incompatibility with the actual job that I was hiring for is like, you know, supremely overqualified people, but not qualified at all for the work that I was I had listed in the job ad.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah, yeah. Which is sad, isn't it? That that's the state of the economy, it seems at the moment. So many highly qualified people just without work. It highlights to me, though, the importance of learning entrepreneurial skills and knowing how to make money on your, you know, from your own initiatives, which, yeah, I've always people always said to me that being an entrepreneur or being a sorry, um, I don't, we I suppose are small business owners as opposed to entrepreneurs who, you know, take an innovative product to market with the intention to sell and and and move to the next project and acquire lots of different businesses. And but even as small business owners, um, people used to say to me, Oh, that's so risky. I'd never I could never do that. It's so risky. And I think, well, being an employee is more risky than having the ability to control your own destiny, you know, like at least I can't, you know. Um, yes, it's hard being responsible for your own revenue and and um, but you're in complete control. Whereas as an employee, you're at the whim of you know, whatever the company decides, if they're firing, um, as they do, go through cycles of, you know, laying off, then yeah, I feel like in this day and age, having those um entrepreneurial skill sets is just a critical way of staying, um, you know, staying in the game.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yes, yes. The other thing too that I wanted to mention was transitioning from, you know, like we when you think about, you know, I said earlier, write down all the tasks and the and work out the tasks you're going to delegate. And then you have to sort of shift your mindset again from I just want a person who's going to complete these tasks to looking at that list of tasks and saying, what area of responsibility do they fall under? Yeah. And give the person the responsibility and not the task.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Yes, that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

It is in this job market, people are looking for more than just a job where they you well, I say this, but then I kind of retracted in my head. Given past experiences of people that just want to get the payment and not pick a list of tasks off and go home.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Yes, there are those people out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Small business owners can't afford to have those kind of employees. So the kind of employees we're looking for are the ones that are going to take ownership and take responsibility and really run with it.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

And while it's important that you have your systems documented, it is also important to give them ownership and a little bit of autonomy to improve on what you've already created. Because this is where you're going to get a return on investment from staff.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember listening to a guy who runs a very successful um drainage company here in Perth. Drainage in the sense that they go into construction sites. I don't know if that's the right word, but they pump out all the groundwater. It's a really, really critical um, you know, process they have to go through before they can build. And uh and he's he started out on his own with it and then started bringing people in, eventually built up this amazingly successful company, sold it off, and now he just consults back as an executive director. And but he always said the most important thing when hiring was to give that person um a long-term vision of what's possible for them in the company if they succeed in their role, whether it's equity in the company or some financial incentive. But he said it's so important that they see that they are coming in to help grow the business, even as an employee on the floor, you know, that that their role is important, has greater meaning, and really trying to find those people that want the longevity, want the ownership, want the accountability to build something great, and then they're motivated by whatever that end result is, whether it's you know a financial, but that that purpose is what drives us as humans, isn't it? And yeah, and and yeah, building a business with those kind of people is is what can what helps you succeed long term.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yes, yes. I think I I've seen quite a few places where uh they've said you can't put a price on loyalty, and where I think you get loyal employees is understanding uh understanding the relationship and what has to be given in both directions, because there's a lot of complaints from employers, business owners, about you know having to pay people to do things. And you know, there's a lot of discussion about cost of living. And look, do you know, Kate? A few months ago, I thought I'd, you know, I thought Seeks had enough of my money. I'm gonna try Facebook groups just to look for stuff. Yeah. Oh, that did not last long. Okay. The the trolls that attacked me for the hourly rate and things like that. And I'm like, we are paying well above the award, and they're like, I wouldn't get out of bed for that, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, you people are nasty, really nasty. And no idea. Yeah. No, no, and then I'm thinking about what what happened to just wanting to go and do an honest day's work? Like, where did where did the work ethic go? Like, I know people have got to put food on the table, but you know, it's um it it can be fraught with danger. Yeah. You know, and then you get ghosted a lot too. That's that happens a lot in the hiring process. You're gonna get like if you out of a hundred applicants, there are gonna be a percentage that, you know, you'll you'll whittle it down to a group, and then half of them are not gonna respond to you.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Because they've found something else or they're on to the next thing, or yeah. Yeah, yeah. So And they don't have the decency to just send an email saying, um, thank you, but I've moved, I've found something else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

No, and that's probably because employers don't do that either.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah, true. That's true.

unknown 43:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

It's a ruthless process, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Yes. And there is a very, very vast gap in the communication between candidates and prospective employers.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Yeah, I made the decision many years ago to not ever employ anyone in my business. And I think that's also um choosing the thought leader path, right? As opposed to as opposed to building a a nuts and bolts bricks and mortar kind of business. But um yeah, I just know from my engineering days in managing people that I just don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy looking at their timesheets, you know, hearing their stories about why they need to take annual leave here and there. And and and uh I just I love the craft of what I do, and I don't like the people. So I guess that's important to know for yourself as well, whether you are someone who can manage people and whether that's in your zone of genius. Um, you know, it depends on the type of business. Some businesses obviously need to recruit and grow and have staff that's just um a non-negotiable. So in the in that case, you've got to you've got to learn the skills and learn to like the the people management and yes, you know, yeah, but it's not for everyone, that's for sure. But if we were to because we have to um oh, and I was going to say as well, the engineering company that I worked in, we had an it was employee-owned. So we as employees were business builders, and to become a shareholder in the business was the ultimate um goal, which I did after after about five, three, four, five years of working there, I was invited to be a shareholder. And that is that incentive I was talking about, where now you're actually officially recognized as a business builder, and therefore you get the um dividends from the shares every year, which was significant. It was like a bonus of you know 20K and upwards a year. And that incentive is what then incentivizes you know us to keep growing the business. And that whole it was that whole purpose meaning thing that suddenly took on a whole new life. So I think that's a really powerful structure for service-based businesses, but that's a whole other you know, topic. But if we were to wrap up our key takeaways from today around automating, delegating, outsourcing, and hiring, what are the how would we wrap this up with a nice little bow?

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Oh do the groundwork before you decide anything. Do those little things that we've talked about throughout the episode, you know, write write down what you're doing, write down the stuff you want to keep doing and the stuff you don't want to do, work out what what has to be done by a human, and and people management needs a human. Yeah, absolutely. But you know, like checking my calendar and fixing my email inbox and things like that. That's all AI stuff, you know. Yeah, and then think about what kind you know, do do a bit of soul searching and really identify what kind of person you are and what kind of person you need to balance out you in the business, giving a much more well-rounded perspective to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So um hope that's been helpful to everyone today. Just remembering that systems come before staff and yeah, you know, creating order in the realm before attempting to bring anyone else into the business and making sure you're very clear on the expectations and um the outcomes that are required. And yeah, we hope this episode has been helpful. This um wraps up the um the quadrant on profitability and keeping the money you earn because obviously running efficiently is very, very important to profitability. So, yeah, and we're moving on now. Um, our next episode will be in the third quadrant, which is all about capacity and growth. So that's about scaling, about delivering consistent, excellent client service, about building a strong team and your business model to scale. What's the business model that's going to give you the biggest capacity for growth? So lots of exciting topics coming up, and then following on from that, we'll have the leadership quadrant. So, yeah, if you um we already have some people signed up for the workshop on the 20th of May. So if you would like to come along and discuss all things profitability, we will be um having 90 minutes of live coaching. Um, so Sam and I will be answering all your questions. So we would love to see you there. It was a great success. The last one we did on revenue generation.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

So yeah, yeah, came out of the class feeling really, really invigorated by that conversation and and just you know how much everyone contributed and how much everyone got out of it was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Yes, and we're still sending out their personalized reports for them to to work on. So, yes, and everyone coming to the workshop on the 20th of May will also walk away with a with a with a um report, personalized report on how they can improve profitability in their business. Yes, and for those who are keen, our retreat is coming up in August, the 27th of August to the 1st of September. So put it in your diary. Um let us know if you want to lock in your space with a deposit. Um, we just need a$200 deposit to secure your spot. And yes, come join us in the transformational experience where we bring all of this um business building stuff together into a strategic plan for you. Yes. Woohoo! All right, everyone, we will see you in the next episode. That's all from us. Bye for now. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

You've got the strategies. Now let's build the systems. Whether you're joining our workshops or transforming at our barley business retreat, we're here to help you scale without the burnout. Visit Thriving Business Podcast.com to join our community. Until next time, keep building a business that thrives.